Welcome to the Cadillac V-Series Forums!

Nerding Out on Handling Data

poor-sha

Seasoned Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
744
Location
NoVA
I was just looking at some PDR data from the 5BW and thought I'd share a bit of it as it relates to handing. This first chart is the Lateral and Longitudinal Gs plotted on an X/Y chart. The colors are tagged to different parts of the corner:

Blue: steady cornering
Purple: steady cornering at high speed (>70 MPH)
Green: Accelerating out of the corner
Red: Braking
Orange: Trail braking (braking and cornering)

The yellow ring is 1G and the outer ring is 1.5G, this is also a plot of all 8 laps in the session.

So what's cool is that this car is pulling nearly 1.5Gs on the factory PS4S tires with peaks near 1.7G. That's damn impressive for a fully treaded street tire on a 4100+ lb sedan.

1658358200872.png


Now let's look at balance. This is lateral acceleration plotted against a channel I call "oversteer angle". OA is basically the relationship of yaw rate to steering input with positive being oversteer and negative being understeer. In this case I'm only looking at a single fast lap as it's easier to pick out with fewer data points. You see values for right hand turns in the cluster on the left side and left hand turns on the right cluster. It's also worth noting that you always get some degree of understeer when you first turn in as the tire builds slip angle

As a driver I'm most happy in the +/- 5 range. What you can see in this plot is that there is some understeer in corning but it's nothing I'd call horrible with a lot of the understeer coming from picking up the throttle (green) and unweighting the front end. If I pick points of high understeer and go look at the video it's often the entry to Oak Tree (VIR) where I tend to overcook the entry or pickup the throttle early - in other words it's driver inducted. You can also see that by trail braking you can get the cornering pretty neutral - easily balancing between mild understeer and rotation.

1658359110175.png


I don't know if you all find this nerdy stuff as fascinating as I do but I thought I'd share.
 
I was just looking at some PDR data from the 5BW and thought I'd share a bit of it as it relates to handing. This first chart is the Lateral and Longitudinal Gs plotted on an X/Y chart. The colors are tagged to different parts of the corner:

Blue: steady cornering
Purple: steady cornering at high speed (>70 MPH)
Green: Accelerating out of the corner
Red: Braking
Orange: Trail braking (braking and cornering)

The yellow ring is 1G and the outer ring is 1.5G, this is also a plot of all 8 laps in the session.

So what's cool is that this car is pulling nearly 1.5Gs on the factory PS4S tires with peaks near 1.7G. That's damn impressive for a fully treaded street tire on a 4100+ lb sedan.

View attachment 10749

Now let's look at balance. This is lateral acceleration plotted against a channel I call "oversteer angle". OA is basically the relationship of yaw rate to steering input with positive being oversteer and negative being understeer. In this case I'm only looking at a single fast lap as it's easier to pick out with fewer data points. You see values for right hand turns in the cluster on the left side and left hand turns on the right cluster. It's also worth noting that you always get some degree of understeer when you first turn in as the tire builds slip angle

As a driver I'm most happy in the +/- 5 range. What you can see in this plot is that there is some understeer in corning but it's nothing I'd call horrible with a lot of the understeer coming from picking up the throttle (green) and unweighting the front end. If I pick points of high understeer and go look at the video it's often the entry to Oak Tree (VIR) where I tend to overcook the entry or pickup the throttle early - in other words it's driver inducted. You can also see that by trail braking you can get the cornering pretty neutral - easily balancing between mild understeer and rotation.

View attachment 10750

I don't know if you all find this nerdy stuff as fascinating as I do but I thought I'd share.

LOVE THIS! I was on the fence about ordering PDR, but as an engineer I know I'll enjoy looking at data like these.
 
Are you just messing around, getting the feel of the weight dynamics of the car? As opposed to 'carving the straight line'?

I ask because that strikes me as loads of trail-braking for a RWD, especially between 1-1.5g and then generally compared to maintenance throttle, and then acceleration.

Thanks for sharing, btw what are you using for the data visualization?
 
Trying to go fast. Most cars need some extra weight on the nose to get them to turn - at least every car I’ve driven. Granted all you see there is a summary of the entire session but ideally you want to keep the car on the limit of the friction circle as you transition from brakes to cornering

I’m using Cosworth Pi Toolbox. Everything you saw can be done in the free Lite version.
 
Trying to go fast. Most cars need some extra weight on the nose to get them to turn - at least every car I’ve driven. Granted all you see there is a summary of the entire session but ideally you want to keep the car on the limit of the friction circle as you transition from brakes to cornering

I’m using Cosworth Pi Toolbox. Everything you saw can be done in the free Lite version.
Cool thanks for the that :) I'm a guy who does occasional HPDEs, as a opposed to a track rat, but a while back I had a JDM Honda Civic Type R (FD2) that was absolutely made for trail braking and I guess I think of it being more to get FWDs turned in, now I am super interested to see how the 4BW will behave with a bit on circuit. Thanks again
 
I was just looking at some PDR data from the 5BW and thought I'd share a bit of it as it relates to handing. This first chart is the Lateral and Longitudinal Gs plotted on an X/Y chart. The colors are tagged to different parts of the corner:

Blue: steady cornering
Purple: steady cornering at high speed (>70 MPH)
Green: Accelerating out of the corner
Red: Braking
Orange: Trail braking (braking and cornering)

The yellow ring is 1G and the outer ring is 1.5G, this is also a plot of all 8 laps in the session.

So what's cool is that this car is pulling nearly 1.5Gs on the factory PS4S tires with peaks near 1.7G. That's damn impressive for a fully treaded street tire on a 4100+ lb sedan.

View attachment 10749

Now let's look at balance. This is lateral acceleration plotted against a channel I call "oversteer angle". OA is basically the relationship of yaw rate to steering input with positive being oversteer and negative being understeer. In this case I'm only looking at a single fast lap as it's easier to pick out with fewer data points. You see values for right hand turns in the cluster on the left side and left hand turns on the right cluster. It's also worth noting that you always get some degree of understeer when you first turn in as the tire builds slip angle

As a driver I'm most happy in the +/- 5 range. What you can see in this plot is that there is some understeer in corning but it's nothing I'd call horrible with a lot of the understeer coming from picking up the throttle (green) and unweighting the front end. If I pick points of high understeer and go look at the video it's often the entry to Oak Tree (VIR) where I tend to overcook the entry or pickup the throttle early - in other words it's driver inducted. You can also see that by trail braking you can get the cornering pretty neutral - easily balancing between mild understeer and rotation.

View attachment 10750

I don't know if you all find this nerdy stuff as fascinating as I do but I thought I'd share.
very cool!
 
Cool thanks for the that :) I'm a guy who does occasional HPDEs, as a opposed to a track rat, but a while back I had a JDM Honda Civic Type R (FD2) that was absolutely made for trail braking and I guess I think of it being more to get FWDs turned in, now I am super interested to see how the 4BW will behave with a bit on circuit. Thanks again
Make sure you take advantage of the Spring Mountain offer. They cover this extensively there (they call it balance braking).
 
Make sure you take advantage of the Spring Mountain offer. They cover this extensively there (they call it balance braking).
Yes for sure - I'm on the waitlist for 2023 - funnily enough it's a popular program :)
 
I finally got around to downloading the Toolbox (GM) from their site.
Am I right to assume this is the free Pi version? Since it didn't require anything beyond an email address for the link. It says 'Cosworth Box Version 3.0 (Build 406 Update 1)' in the about page, but no more details than that.
Just starting to have a play with it :)

1664733871109.png
 
I finally got around to downloading the Toolbox (GM) from their site.
Am I right to assume this is the free Pi version? Since it didn't require anything beyond an email address for the link. It says 'Cosworth Box Version 3.0 (Build 406 Update 1)' in the about page, but no more details than that.
Just starting to have a play with it :)

View attachment 13103
Sure it's free🤫😏 and that's looks great, but you may want to close your shades... you don't hear any helicopters do you?
fbi-open-up-open-up.gif
 
Sure it's free🤫😏 and that's looks great, but you may want to close your shades... you don't hear any helicopters do you?
View attachment 13104
TBH I sent the pic to a friend and they're woah what the hell?!
Obviously on the road it's more for poops and giggles, but on track this will be really cool. The way it syncs everything to the video is awesome. Oh right I totally cocked that up and here's the data around it... very cool!
 
To me this is next level shit that I don't understand!! I got a headache trying to read the information...... Is there a cliffs notes version?
I was just looking at some PDR data from the 5BW and thought I'd share a bit of it as it relates to handing. This first chart is the Lateral and Longitudinal Gs plotted on an X/Y chart. The colors are tagged to different parts of the corner:

Blue: steady cornering
Purple: steady cornering at high speed (>70 MPH)
Green: Accelerating out of the corner
Red: Braking
Orange: Trail braking (braking and cornering)

The yellow ring is 1G and the outer ring is 1.5G, this is also a plot of all 8 laps in the session.

So what's cool is that this car is pulling nearly 1.5Gs on the factory PS4S tires with peaks near 1.7G. That's damn impressive for a fully treaded street tire on a 4100+ lb sedan.

View attachment 10749

Now let's look at balance. This is lateral acceleration plotted against a channel I call "oversteer angle". OA is basically the relationship of yaw rate to steering input with positive being oversteer and negative being understeer. In this case I'm only looking at a single fast lap as it's easier to pick out with fewer data points. You see values for right hand turns in the cluster on the left side and left hand turns on the right cluster. It's also worth noting that you always get some degree of understeer when you first turn in as the tire builds slip angle

As a driver I'm most happy in the +/- 5 range. What you can see in this plot is that there is some understeer in corning but it's nothing I'd call horrible with a lot of the understeer coming from picking up the throttle (green) and unweighting the front end. If I pick points of high understeer and go look at the video it's often the entry to Oak Tree (VIR) where I tend to overcook the entry or pickup the throttle early - in other words it's driver inducted. You can also see that by trail braking you can get the cornering pretty neutral - easily balancing between mild understeer and rotation.

View attachment 10750

I don't know if you all find this nerdy stuff as fascinating as I do but I thought I'd share.
I gotta let this all marinate in my skull for a while to make sense for me, but the data gathering from the PDR is fascinating! The one option I would have liked to have included in my car. Its nerdy in a way however, when understood there a boat load of great info to absorb. Great tool for an owner. Cool post, thank you!
 

Win 2 Supercharged Cadillacs!

Win both supercharged Cadillac Vs!

Supporting Vendors

Delaware Cadillac

Exhibitions of Speed

Signature Wheels

Taput Tunning LLC

V-Series Marketplace

Advertise with the Cadillac V-Net!

Torque Shop

Our Partners

Back
Top Bottom