Anyone want a $94k 4BW?

[The Sandman]

For traction reasons? It would sure launch like a beast if it had AWD but I think it wouldn’t be as much fun to drive as RWD setup. It would add even more weight and take away some of the playfulness you get from RWD.

BMW found a way to provide the best of both worlds:

Sign me up for a 5BW with XDrive

 

[almazing]

Yeah, I feel the same. The dealers all around me have their 4BW Track Editions and I haven't seen one sell yet. I tend to be a price/performance type of buyer. If you are coming from Camaro or even the C7 Corvette world and the associated pricing I find it hard to justify spending the money. I feel like those highly optioned 4BWs and Track Editions are going to experience huge depreciation since they are not highly sought after as the 5BW and at the end of the day there are no mechanical or performance improvements made to the vehicle.

To me the 4BW is really a 4 door Camaro with a twin turbo V6. I just don't see why a 4BW has to cost so much more than a Camaro 2SS with 1LE package at $52k. Even my 2021 ZL1 was $67k. MSRP, which is still less than most 4BWs.

The Camaros include Recaros, HUD, E-Diff, Mag-ride, 6 piston Brembos, 20" forged wheels with track tires, dual mode exhaust, Tremec TR6060, and you get a V8 option. I think Cadillac would do better if they had bundled packages instead of nickel and diming for all the options. The base price is reasonable for a high performance sports sedan but once you start ticking the boxes it gets expensive real quick. For example, HUD, $725, PDR $1600, you want the same wheels painted black, $600, painted bronze, $1500. You want your car any color other than black or white, $625, you want the same brake calipers painted red, blue or bronze, $600, red seat belts, $400, mid-tier sport bucket seats, $3k, leather seats, $5500, automatic transmission $3175 with mandatory packages. Then if you want the car to look as cool as it does in all the pictures you need to spend over $10k on carbon fiber packages. I get that is this a fairly low volume vehicle targeted at a shrinking demographic but still seems excessive.

What I appreciate most about the 4BW is that is strikes a good balance of performance and practicality and I can row my own gears. It ticks a lot of boxes but once it goes north of $70k I think the value proposition is lost. Just my opinion, no offense to anyone.

I've also considered a 1SS LE, but I can't get behind the ugly interior and horrendous ergonomics. I thought journalists were BSing with the bad ergos on Camaros, but they were right. At least for me. Plus I feel that the 4BW is a no-nonsense motorsports-derived approach to the design and performance. With a bit of luxury sprinkled in. I appreciate the thought and engineering that was put in to the 4BW to make it a very capable track car. And turbo noises. Psssshhhhh. And the 4th gen MagnaRide dampers and updated and refined Alpha platform make it a better riding car overall.

18 inch wheels on a modern luxury sports sedan is unheard of. 18 inch tires are A LOT cheaper than 20 inch tires. The 4BW also has narrower tires, which are also cheaper and has a MUCH larger selection. I can get a set of Hankook RS4S in stock sizes for my future 4BW and be happy with them. And it's just as fast as a 1SS LE on track despite being 200 lbs heavier. 20 inch wheels, to me, especially when it can be downsized to 18s and still fit over the brakes is the definition of gimmicky and unnecessary. That's exactly what I hate about the German cars, to include Porsche. Gimme the proper sized wheels that barely fit over the brakes, please.

I'm not JUST about value. If I were, I would have just got a 1SS LE and called it a day. The 4BW just has the right combination of the extra special sauce, rarity, mystique, thoughtful engineering, and performance that elevate it to the top of my list. The extra practicality and standard creature comforts are a plus, since I drive to and from track events.

 

[raptor5244]

BMW found a way to provide the best of both worlds:

Sign me up for a 5BW with XDrive

Jason does a good job explaining all the AWD systems.

 

[raptor5244]

I've also considered a 1SS LE, but I can't get behind the ugly interior and horrendous ergonomics. I thought journalists were BSing with the bad ergos on Camaros, but they were right. At least for me. Plus I feel that the 4BW is a no-nonsense motorsports-derived approach to the design and performance. With a bit of luxury sprinkled in. I appreciate the thought and engineering that was put in to the 4BW to make it a very capable track car. And turbo noises. Psssshhhhh. And the 4th gen MagnaRide dampers and updated and refined Alpha platform make it a better riding car overall.

18 inch wheels on a modern luxury sports sedan is unheard of. 18 inch tires are A LOT cheaper than 20 inch tires. The 4BW also has narrower tires, which are also cheaper and has a MUCH larger selection. I can get a set of Hankook RS4S in stock sizes for my future 4BW and be happy with them. And it's just as fast as a 1SS LE on track despite being 200 lbs heavier. 20 inch wheels, to me, especially when it can be downsized to 18s and still fit over the brakes is the definition of gimmicky and unnecessary. That's exactly what I hate about the German cars, to include Porsche. Gimme the proper sized wheels that barely fit over the brakes, please.

I'm not JUST about value. If I were, I would have just got a 1SS LE and called it a day. The 4BW just has the right combination of the extra special sauce, rarity, mystique, thoughtful engineering, and performance that elevate it to the top of my list. The extra practicality and standard creature comforts are a plus, since I drive to and from track events.

I prefer the look of 19" wheels or larger but really appreciate that the tires on the 18s cost ~$800 less per set vs. the 20" PS4S.

 

[vj123]

It might be a great pick for someone who wanted to store it in their climate controlled garage with delivery miles and sell it after 15 years.

 

[hawgs911]

I prefer the look of 19" wheels or larger but really appreciate that the tires on the 18s cost ~$800 less per set vs. the 20" PS4S.

Thats why you keep the 18's for the track and rock the bling wheels for the street

 

[DAC17]

I traded a ZL1 for the 4BW. I wanted to experience the LT4 power and it is awesome but most of the time it was just an exercise of restraint. The limits of the car are so high that it felt frustrating to drive it around at 3/10ths all the time. I would do a pull and by the end of the highway on-ramp I would be at 130mph. I also didn't like the tall gearing of the M6 when paired to the LT4, which makes it harder to wind out the gears and listen to the exhaust sing. 60mph in 1st, 84mph in 2nd, 113mph in 3rd is cool and all but I didn't find it as much fun on the street.

The 4BW is feels more nimble and is quick but with its shorter gearing you can wind out the gears a little more. I think the Miata I had is still the most fun on the street if you like to wind out the gears without risking your license.

Yup; totally agree on the Miata comment! Note my signature!

 

[poor-sha]

Yup; totally agree on the Miata comment! Note my signature!

I have to agree. If you want a car to flog on the street but still feels fast at “not going to jail” speeds get an ND2 Miata. Unfortunately that also bores me on track as I like to wrestle the alligator at speed.

 

[emdough]

I have to agree. If you want a car to flog on the street but still feels fast at “not going to jail” speeds get an ND2 Miata. Unfortunately that also bores me on track as I like to wrestle the alligator at speed.

What if you can’t fit in a Miata? GR Corolla or 86 maybe?

 

[raptor5244]

What if you can’t fit in a Miata? GR Corolla or 86 maybe?

Oddly enough, the Miata is so much fun you find guys 6’4” squeeing into them somehow. Top down of course. The GR86 is fun but the Miata manual transmission is better, lighter and the top goes down. The ND2 engine is a lot smoother than the boxer and it sounds better to my ears.

GR Corolla would be fun to try but the desirable trim is like $50k for a Corolla. The new Nissan Z is just ok for $50k, the BMW Supra is still the better car for the money and now finally offered with a manual.

 

[emdough]

Oddly enough, the Miata is so much fun you find guys 6’4” squeeing into them somehow. Top down of course. The GR86 is fun but the Miata manual transmission is better, lighter and the top goes down. The ND2 engine is a lot smoother than the boxer and it sounds better to my ears.

GR Corolla would be fun to try but the desirable trim is like $50k for a Corolla. The new Nissan Z is just ok for $50k, the BMW Supra is still the better car for the money and now finally offered with a manual.

Way too cramped for me even with the top down and I'm 6'-3". Would love to test drive the GR Corolla but if the interior is anything like the regular then that would be tough to tolerate at that price point.

 

[Barstoolman1127]

4BW for daily driving ……5BW for those who want a garage queen. I doubt many 5BW owners have significant mileage on their cars….. if you do, would love to see a pic of your odometer as it seems most are afraid to drive them, lol! I guess the only explanation is your all hoping they’ll be the ultimate collectible!

BTW….. there’s no sarcasm button so, just take what I’m saying, with a grain of salt and have a little fun with it!!!

 

[Dalyons03]

Yeah, I feel the same. The dealers all around me have their 4BW Track Editions and I haven't seen one sell yet. I tend to be a price/performance type of buyer. If you are coming from Camaro or even the C7 Corvette world and the associated pricing I find it hard to justify spending the money. I feel like those highly optioned 4BWs and Track Editions are going to experience huge depreciation since they are not highly sought after as the 5BW and at the end of the day there are no mechanical or performance improvements made to the vehicle.

To me the 4BW is really a 4 door Camaro with a twin turbo V6. I just don't see why a 4BW has to cost so much more than a Camaro 2SS with 1LE package at $52k. Even my 2021 ZL1 was $67k. MSRP, which is still less than most 4BWs.

The Camaros include Recaros, HUD, E-Diff, Mag-ride, 6 piston Brembos, 20" forged wheels with track tires, dual mode exhaust, Tremec TR6060, and you get a V8 option. I think Cadillac would do better if they had bundled packages instead of nickel and diming for all the options. The base price is reasonable for a high performance sports sedan but once you start ticking the boxes it gets expensive real quick. For example, HUD, $725, PDR $1600, you want the same wheels painted black, $600, painted bronze, $1500. You want your car any color other than black or white, $625, you want the same brake calipers painted red, blue or bronze, $600, red seat belts, $400, mid-tier sport bucket seats, $3k, leather seats, $5500, automatic transmission $3175 with mandatory packages. Then if you want the car to look as cool as it does in all the pictures you need to spend over $10k on carbon fiber packages. I get that is this a fairly low volume vehicle targeted at a shrinking demographic but still seems excessive.

What I appreciate most about the 4BW is that is strikes a good balance of performance and practicality and I can row my own gears. It ticks a lot of boxes but once it goes north of $70k I think the value proposition is lost. Just my opinion, no offense to anyone.

Family has both a 4BW and 2SS Camaro and I see the value in 50k vs 68k MSRP gap.

Both cars end up serving same purpose of providing daily transport for family.

The 4 to me provides a wider range of capabilities. A lot of it is the mag ride 4.0. The range it can deliver is incredible compared to 3.0 on the Camaro. Also think the 18 inch wheel is superior to the Camaro 20. You can really feel the weight of the wheels translate through the car. The Camaro has crash and bang feel at times vs CT4 feeling composed.

The LT1 in Camaro is the asset it has over LF4. You can’t beat sound and appreciate no turbo lag.

Overall like the CT4 better and I can justify the 18K in my mind. Even with both cars having similar features.

Now a 94k BW, no way for me!

 

[rj45]

For me, the larger value gap is between the already well appointed ZL1 and the 5BW. The 5BW is the nicer car, but has similar bones and is $30k more. A nicely optioned 4BW is, what, $20k more than a loaded SS? The engines are different, but each have benefits over the other; one torquier and better sounding, the other more refined and more easily modded (turbo vs na).

Of course, all of these cars are much more of a want rather than a need purchase. To a degree, the value proposition is moot. If one wants a BW rather than a Camaro, and can afford it, that’s likely what one will buy. That said, the 4BW represents a fair value when compared to the SS…luxury marque, higher level of refinement, better fit-and-finish and and additional tech features. Ultimately, both the Camaro and BW offer tremendous value for money when compared to similarly performing, more expensive vehicles.

 

[The Sandman]

You can really feel the weight of the wheels translate through the car. The Camaro has crash and bang feel at times vs CT4 feeling composed.

Weight of the wheels or sidewall depth?

 

[DAC17]

Oddly enough, the Miata is so much fun you find guys 6’4” squeeing into them somehow. Top down of course. The GR86 is fun but the Miata manual transmission is better, lighter and the top goes down. The ND2 engine is a lot smoother than the boxer and it sounds better to my ears.

GR Corolla would be fun to try but the desirable trim is like $50k for a Corolla. The new Nissan Z is just ok for $50k, the BMW Supra is still the better car for the money and now finally offered with a manual.

Some tall guys fit. I'm 6'3" and 190 and a close fit. But I do fit, even for one- to two-hour trips.

 

[raptor5244]

Family has both a 4BW and 2SS Camaro and I see the value in 50k vs 68k MSRP gap.

Both cars end up serving same purpose of providing daily transport for family.

The 4 to me provides a wider range of capabilities. A lot of it is the mag ride 4.0. The range it can deliver is incredible compared to 3.0 on the Camaro. Also think the 18 inch wheel is superior to the Camaro 20. You can really feel the weight of the wheels translate through the car. The Camaro has crash and bang feel at times vs CT4 feeling composed.

The LT1 in Camaro is the asset it has over LF4. You can’t beat sound and appreciate no turbo lag.

Overall like the CT4 better and I can justify the 18K in my mind. Even with both cars having similar features.

Now a 94k BW, no way for me!

I agree. As I have aged I am appreciating the 4BW more than the Camaros and Corvettes I have owned. It is just a much better daily driver. Totally concur on Magride 4.0 and I even like the brake by wire adjustability. I couldn't tell a difference between the modes in my Camaro but in the 4BW it is quite noticeable. The Michelins PS4S tires also make a big difference vs. the Goodyears I had. I do miss the V8 sound a little but this LF4 pulls just as hard when the boost kicks in. I also like how fast it revs, I wonder if they used a lighter flywheel in the 4BW vs the Camaro?

 

[hawgs911]

I knew I preferred the 4 when I sat in a 5 and it felt huge to me.

On long straights on the track I really wish I had an extra 50-75 HP but everywhere else the car is just so balanced and nimble I know I made the right choice for myself.

As a daily the 4 has plenty enough power to get you in trouble easily but not so much that you cant uncork it anytime you want.

-p.s- wouldnt have minded a V8

 

[raptor5244]

For me, the larger value gap is between the already well appointed ZL1 and the 5BW. The 5BW is the nicer car, but has similar bones and is $30k more. A nicely optioned 4BW is, what, $20k more than a loaded SS? The engines are different, but each have benefits over the other; one torquier and better sounding, the other more refined and more easily modded (turbo vs na).

Of course, all of these cars are much more of a want rather than a need purchase. To a degree, the value proposition is moot. If one wants a BW rather than a Camaro, and can afford it, that’s likely what one will buy. That said, the 4BW represents a fair value when compared to the SS…luxury marque, higher level of refinement, better fit-and-finish and and additional tech features. Ultimately, both the Camaro and BW offer tremendous value for money when compared to similarly performing, more expensive vehicles.

Yep, I went from a $67k MSRP ZL1 with A10 to a 4BW with M6. The ZL1 is a great performance value the money. I enjoyed it for a while but found it over the limit for the roads I am able to drive on. Much happier in the 4BW with M6.

 

[The Sandman]

Getting back to the original topic… I just spent a little time looking over the Sebring IMSA Blackwing, and I’ve come to 2 conclusions:

If it were for me I’d configure it with the standard black wheels and delete the sunroof and suede steering wheel and save about $3,000.

And the car is definitely worth the price. The Maverick Noir Frost is not available on 4BWs and on 5BWs it’s an $8120 option. So between the 2 CF packages and the paint you’re already getting close to $20,000 in options. The additional decals, badges, baubles, and exclusivity easily make up any difference IMO. Plus of the 3 IMSA editions, the Sebring is far and away the best looking.