Used Value Trend

[savethemanual]

All this used car prices talk made me think of something.

I have friends who bought Tesla model y long range for the same price(65k) as my ct4 v blackwing in 2022.

Those things are now around 35k best case in the used market. So they’re basically stuck driving a mediocre(at best) badly made unreliable and still rapidly depreciating ev toaster box for the foreseeable future.

Contrast that with us, Even with the numbers we’re seeing we’re just “stuck” driving the 2 greatest practical performance cars of the last decade.

I can think of worse things than that

 

[savethemanual]

As for values, it seems to be doing as well or as badly as its peers. (M3, m2) etc.

As long as it’s worth around 40k at the end of my 5 year ownership I’m happy with my choices.

 

[raptor5244]

All this used car prices talk made me think of something.

I have friends who bought Tesla model y long range for the same price(65k) as my ct4 v blackwing in 2022.

Those things are now around 35k best case in the used market. So they’re basically stuck driving a mediocre(at best) badly made unreliable and still rapidly depreciating ev toaster box for the foreseeable future.

Congrats that with us, Even with the numbers we’re seeing we’re just “stuck” driving the 2 greatest practical performance cars of the last decade.

I can think of worse things than that

I bought a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance, it was $56k at the time after the $3,750 tax credit. I found it to be a decent vehicle with a lot of cool tech but once the instant torque novelty wore off I missed the engagement of a manual transmission. I sold it when the market started going nuts during the pandemic and Carmax gave me $48k for it, which was about $8k higher than I could have got 6 months earlier.

The real problem is all the folks that got in over their head with these inflated prices and high interest auto loans. I just read that every 1 out of 5 auto loans in the US are now behind on payments. 10 year auto loans will start to become the norm now, crazy.

 

[MookdocOE]

the 'other' forums manual shifter is even more highly regarded than the tremec in the BW's if you can believe it!

Spot on. I feel that it’s somewhat the same story for the 5BW. Majority of people want BMWs and Audis, to roll with the sheep on instagram. Validation from “enthusiasts”, or something like that. The BWs are wolves in sheep’s clothing. I’ve owned a variety of sports cars, including 2x M3s, and nothing has ever come close to the pure enjoyment and satisfaction of ripping through the gears in my 5BW.

I’ve had this thing at plenty of events around other sports cars, and usually only a handful of people understand its lure. Majority just ask why I traded in a G80 M3 for a Cadillac (lol). Most people just won’t ever experience an authentic, intoxicating experience that the BW provides.

This is the exact reason it goes down as a HIGHLY sought after vehicle years after it's production stopped. Show me another car where your grandmother can daily drive and Randy Pobts can put on rails at 200mph in the same day and both drivers would have 100% joyful experience? You could do that in a Tesla duh? Really? My Grandmother isn't handling the Yoke steering, 1 pedal driving and gigantic computer screen she has absolutely no clue what to do with?

 

[Roadhawk]

I don't plan on selling this car any time soon (if ever)...but on enjoying the driving experience...thats how I approach all my cars...but I'm not a typical buyer I know.

 

[MookdocOE]

I don't plan on selling this car any time soon (if ever)...but on enjoying the driving experience...thats how I approach all my cars...but I'm not a typical buyer I know.

Did you finally get your 4? Tells us what you think?

 

[Roadhawk]

Yeah I did...picked it up a few weeks back and drove it from Atlanta (to DC) with about a 3 hr detour through the mountains. {put 700+ miles on it)...then proceeded to get sick for almost 3 weeks and then took it in to the detailer - just got it back after 1 week...seems like I've hardly driven it (but its got 1,000+ miles on it now....so I have driven it a bit).

The drive up was great...but didn't push it too hard. And I've mostly been driving it around in traffic here (and I was having some second thoughts...this thing is just OK nothing special etc not as fast as my GTI...probably true...)....but last 2 days I've gotten it out and pushed it hard. It really shines when you kick it out and it certainly handles well...so yeah I'm convinced - this is a really great car. I really want to just get in it and drive (out to West Virginia and where there are decent curvy mountain roads you can wail on)...but with the holidays and us hosting relatives I'll be in the kitchen the next few days (and drinking a lot)....so it will have to wait. But yeah...I'm sold...its going to be lot of fun. I'll let you know when I can confirm the 189mph top speed...

And the seats are nice.

 

[MookdocOE]

Yeah I did...picked it up a few weeks back and drove it from Atlanta (to DC) with about a 3 hr detour through the mountains. {put 700+ miles on it)...then proceeded to get sick for almost 3 weeks and then took it in to the detailer - just got it back after 1 week...seems like I've hardly driven it (but its got 1,000+ miles on it now....so I have driven it a bit).

The drive up was great...but didn't push it too hard. And I've mostly been driving it around in traffic here (and I was having some second thoughts...this thing is just OK nothing special etc not as fast as my GTI...probably true...)....but last 2 days I've gotten it out and pushed it hard. It really shines when you kick it out and it certainly handles well...so yeah I'm convinced - this is a really great car. I really want to just get in it and drive (out to West Virginia and where there are decent curvy mountain roads you can wail on)...but with the holidays and us hosting relatives I'll be in the kitchen the next few days (and drinking a lot)....so it will have to wait. But yeah...I'm sold...its going to be lot of fun. I'll let you know when I can confirm the 189mph top speed...

And the seats are nice.

Excellent! The thing I am finding is the more I push the car the more it rewards. When I get in other vehicles and drive them it reminds me how good my BW is. I get what your saying though and I kinda felt the same way but over time I have been shown that these cars are indeed special. Thanks for sharing and enjoy your Cadillac!

 

[division]

All these people who can't wait to "push it through mountain roads to see what it can really do" should be taking advantage of the V-Performance Academy (especially because it's free if you're the first owner). What you think the car can do versus what it can really do isn't even close. If you drive your personal car on the street as you would at the ones at Pahrump, you're going to end up in a bad place. You're not testing the car's limits, you're just driving it faster than you should on a public road.

/not really an old man motorcycle trackday rider rant off

 

[rubberduck]

If you drive your personal car on the street as you would at the ones at Pahrump, you're going to end up in a bad place. You're not testing the car's limits, you're just driving it faster than you should on a public road.

Or testing what a tree, deer, or pedestrian can do to the front end. There is no way I can even come close to utilizing my 5BW on the street (yes, I was at Spring Mountain). I’m completely fine with that, the car performs so well over a wide range of driving scenarios that I’m never without a smile when I think about how blessed I am to own one of these fine machines.

 

[Roadhawk]

All these people who can't wait to "push it through mountain roads to see what it can really do" should be taking advantage of the V-Performance Academy (especially because it's free if you're the first owner). What you think the car can do versus what it can really do isn't even close. If you drive your personal car on the street as you would at the ones at Pahrump, you're going to end up in a bad place. You're not testing the car's limits, you're just driving it faster than you should on a public road.

/not really an old man motorcycle trackday rider rant off

Well I do plan to go...in March if possible...and I've never driven on a track before nor have I had any official training. But don't automatically think I don't know how to drive and don't know how to drive fast well. I know what I'm doing (don't just assume). OK I'm not a track nerd like many here - I'll give you that - and I don't presume I'm a better drive per se then those who are or that I don't have much to learn from the performance academy or such....I'm very much (humbly) looking forward to it (I get it)...but I still disagree with your contention that I'm driving too fast etc for my abilities or such. I probably have more super fast driving experience than 90%+ of folks here (or on any BMW forum etc) and I've been driving for a very long time., I understand what your saying - but it doesn't apply to me.

My father rigorously trained me to drive starting when I was 12 years old. By age 14 he let me drive for 7 hours from DC to Northwestern PA )near Lake Erie) - including on the PA turnpike - with him asleep in the back of our 389 V-8 1967 Mercury station wagon (that I would later in high school drag race and beat Trans Ams and the like). So I had an early start and I've always taken my driving very seriously. I know how to handle a car.

I've driven my B4 Audi S4 (late at night) around the curvy parts of the Capitol Beltway in MD pinned at 140 the whole way. I also took it on the Cherahola parkway in TN doing 100+ the entire 35 miles (in the rain). I've done numerous mountain drives east and west - once diagonally across Colorado (from 4 points to Denver) in my MR2 mostly on 2-3 lane mountain roads where I eventually had to wave the motorcyclists around me - who had been trying to pass me for 2 hours - but couldn't. I regularly take my GTI to West VA to drive mountain roads where I might pass 6-10 motorcyclist over the course of the day where few- if none - pass me. I've done many potentially record setting long runs in various cars - such as DC to Bridgeport CT in 3 1/2 hours in my MR2 100+ the whole way except for through NYC (maybe 70 or so) (and many more such).

A neighbor (who bought my MR2) is an SCCA instructor. He invited me to attend an autocross class event he was instructing at the intermediate level. I got to drive the course after. Having never driven autocross I got the 5th best time vs the entire class on my first run (in the 330 ZHP). He said - wow you really know your car...well I told him it was my wife's car...lol.

And lastly...and I know I've gone on a bit already...back in the late 1990s/early 2000s I ran in "the Meatball" a rally type road race (originally loosely based on the Canonball run point to point but was more a fast scavenger hunt type race with teams leaving every 5 minutes). The race had been going on for at least 15 years when we joined (telling everyone we were going to beat them all....received with much derision) - well we won 1st all 3 years increasing our win margin each time (15 min/30 min/1 hour)...ended up shutting down the race as none felt they could ever beat me (I could tell many stories about this one), In the final race we won the triple crown...lowest overall all time, shortest distance driven and highest overall average speed...which was 67 miles an hour over a 4 hr+ or so "race" with stops for documenting stops and gas...all pretty much on West VA mountain roads (in a Supercharged Mazda Millennia sedan).

Anyway I've gone on way too long and I apologize but I hope I made my point. No hard feelings. BTW I'm hoping I can beat the times of some of the 5s at the academy...don't know if I will but I'm planning to give it a shot. I'm not scared to drive full out fast and I have plenty experience doing so.

Edit: 4 1/2 hours DC- Bridgeport...3 1/2 was Baltimore to Bridgeport time...where I picked up a normally skittish passenger who took it all great - found out years later it was something he took to calm/numb him...don't remember now what.

 

[DCV]

Yeah I did...picked it up a few weeks back and drove it from Atlanta (to DC) with about a 3 hr detour through the mountains. {put 700+ miles on it)...then proceeded to get sick for almost 3 weeks and then took it in to the detailer - just got it back after 1 week...seems like I've hardly driven it (but its got 1,000+ miles on it now....so I have driven it a bit).

The drive up was great...but didn't push it too hard. And I've mostly been driving it around in traffic here (and I was having some second thoughts...this thing is just OK nothing special etc not as fast as my GTI...probably true...)....but last 2 days I've gotten it out and pushed it hard. It really shines when you kick it out and it certainly handles well...so yeah I'm convinced - this is a really great car. I really want to just get in it and drive (out to West Virginia and where there are decent curvy mountain roads you can wail on)...but with the holidays and us hosting relatives I'll be in the kitchen the next few days (and drinking a lot)....so it will have to wait. But yeah...I'm sold...its going to be lot of fun. I'll let you know when I can confirm the 189mph top speed...

And the seats are nice.

Im in DC, we have some fun backroads over in AA county I can take you on for fun drives.

 

[Roadhawk]

Im in DC, we have some fun backroads over in AA county I can take you on for fun drives.

Generally its too crowded over there for my tastes (as it is here in NVA)...I'm also not sure if I'd be comfortable spirited driving either following or being followed by someone. Driving as i do, when I do...takes extreme concentration. I often find that when driving in groups etc inattention and bad decisions can be made.

I have driven somewhat spiritedly in Southeastern AA...so i think I do know some of the roads you might be talking about...still lots of cops too as I recall...

 

[T.O.Blackwing]

Well I do plan to go...in March if possible...and I've never driven on a track before nor have I had any official training. But don't automatically think I don't know how to drive and don't know how to drive fast well. I know what I'm doing (don't just assume). OK I'm not a track nerd like many here - I'll give you that - and I don't presume I'm a better drive per se then those who are or that I don't have much to learn from the performance academy or such....I'm very much (humbly) looking forward to it (I get it)...but I still disagree with your contention that I'm driving too fast etc for my abilities or such. I probably have more super fast driving experience than 90%+ of folks here (or on any BMW forum etc) and I've been driving for a very long time., I understand what your saying - but it doesn't apply to me.

My father rigorously trained me to drive starting when I was 12 years old. By age 14 he let me drive for 7 hours from DC to Northwestern PA )near Lake Erie) - including on the PA turnpike - with him asleep in the back of our 389 V-8 1967 Mercury station wagon (that I would later in high school drag race and beat Trans Ams and the like). So I had an early start and I've always taken my driving very seriously. I know how to handle a car.

I've driven my B4 Audi S4 (late at night) around the curvy parts of the Capitol Beltway in MD pinned at 140 the whole way. I also took it on the Cherahola parkway in TN doing 100+ the entire 35 miles (in the rain). I've done numerous mountain drives east and west - once diagonally across Colorado (from 4 points to Denver) in my MR2 mostly on 2-3 lane mountain roads where I eventually had to wave the motorcyclists around me - who had been trying to pass me for 2 hours - but couldn't. I regularly take my GTI to West VA to drive mountain roads where I might pass 6-10 motorcyclist over the course of the day where few- if none - pass me. I've done many potentially record setting long runs in various cars - such as DC to Bridgeport CT in 3 1/2 hours in my MR2 100+ the whole way except for through NYC (maybe 70 or so) (and many more such).

A neighbor (who bought my MR2) is an SCCA instructor. He invited me to attend an autocross class event he was instructing at the intermediate level. I got to drive the course after. Having never driven autocross I got the 5th best time vs the entire class on my first run (in the 330 ZHP). He said - wow you really know your car...well I told him it was my wife's car...lol.

And lastly...and I know I've gone on a bit already...back in the late 1990s/early 2000s I ran in "the Meatball" a rally type road race (originally loosely based on the Canonball run point to point but was more a fast scavenger hunt type race with teams leaving every 5 minutes). The race had been going on for at least 15 years when we joined (telling everyone we were going to beat them all....received with much derision) - well we won 1st all 3 years increasing our win margin each time (15 min/30 min/1 hour)...ended up shutting down the race as none felt they could ever beat me (I could tell many stories about this one), In the final race we won the triple crown...lowest overall all time, shortest distance driven and highest overall average speed...which was 67 miles an hour over a 4 hr+ or so "race" with stops for documenting stops and gas...all pretty much on West VA mountain roads (in a Supercharged Mazda Millennia sedan).

Anyway I've gone on way too long and I apologize but I hope I made my point. No hard feelings. BTW I'm hoping I can beat the times of some of the 5s at the academy...don't know if I will but I'm planning to give it a shot. I'm not scared to drive full out fast and I have plenty experience doing so.

Edit: 4 1/2 hours DC- Bridgeport...3 1/2 was Baltimore to Bridgeport time...where I picked up a normally skittish passenger who took it all great - found out years later it was something he took to calm/numb him...don't remember now what.

After just skimming through this, which took a while, I had to press back to double-check the title of this thread.
But if we’re going to go off on this tangent - it looks like we have - in my view the street is no place for “super-fast”, especially in a car with a top speed of 205 mph.

 

[Roadhawk]

After just skimming through this, which took a while, I had to press back to double-check the title of this thread.
But if we’re going to go off on this tangent - it looks like we have - in my view the street is no place for “super-fast”, especially in a car with a top speed of 205 mph.

Point taken...I am very careful when I do...which isn't all the time....mostly I drive pretty normally. My driving record is completely clean BTW. Not sure I would do some of the things I have done in my youth now...have to pick my spots and always have to be cognizant and careful with other drivers around. I mostly like being out on less traveled roads when I have my fn.

 

[T.O.Blackwing]

Point taken...I am very careful when I do...which isn't all the time....mostly I drive pretty normally. My driving record is completely clean BTW. Not sure I would do some of the things I have done in my youth now...have to pick my spots and always have to be cognizant and careful with other drivers around. I mostly like being out on less traveled roads when I have my fn.

You really do need to be careful with the Blackwings.
You mentioned something about an MR2.
I have a 93 Turbo and, frankly, it is more fun to drive around the city than my Blackwing.
No knock on my Caddy, it puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, but with the MR2 I can drive it in a way that feels like I’m going really fast yet still be pretty close to legal speeds.
If I pushed the Caddy the same way, I’d be in jail by now.

 

[Roadhawk]

My supercharged MR2 was the most fun to drive car I've ever owned. Its lane change movements and such were almost telepathic...it just did it. I ran Yoko R compound semi slicks in the summer and I often made high speed 90 deg turns where i would lose cassette tapes off the dash holder thingy...they just kept going straight right out the window. It was totally stock...but plenty fast - particularly for thew time.

I understand with greater power comes more restraint. Thats why I want more opportunists to drive it out where there is less traffic (and enforcement)...

 

[division]

BTW I'm hoping I can beat the times of some of the 5s at the academy...don't know if I will but I'm planning to give it a shot. I'm not scared to drive full out fast and I have plenty experience doing so.

I've never been on a track except for motorcycles (no Auto-X or anything, and I too consider myself faster than most in a car), and I had the third fastest lap time on the track, as well as the third fastest Auto-X time. The other two guys were seasoned track guys with dedicated cars and plenty of track time. Oh, and they were both in CT4-V Blackwings in automatics. I was in a CT5-V stick.

As much as it pains me to say, the automatics are quicker... simple as that. But then again, if I wanted a point-and-shoot, I'd get a camera. For street driving, you can't beat a stick. For the track, you can't beat an automatic.

Quick edit: you're only going to be as fast as the instructor lead in front of you. You never really get "real" track time, but chances are the instructors will show you that you're not the fastest guy out there.

 

[Roadhawk]

I always used to consider stick faster than autos until I got to drive a friends 92? big turbo modded 800hp Supra maybe 20 years ago give or take. That car was so fast - fasted car I've ever driven by far. I questioned his choice of the auto and he explained it was faster than the manual. OK I can see that now....but I still think a good driver in a manual can make it pretty much a non-factor.

The no lift shift in the Blackwing should help (haven't tried it yet...almost scared to) I used to often beat my synchros in both my Audi and MR2,,,eeech. But pretty much I could shift fast and make the most of the power. I could see it being more difficult on a track.

I once ran my ZHP against an e46 M3 in (approx) a quarter...ended with me being essentially right on his bumper....I always attributed that to him driving an auto...

 

[PL69]

I will be switching from A10 4BW to 6MT 4BW, I beat all my past lap records with the A10 4BW at my local track and altrough its something that would bother me a bit of I end up being a second or more slower in the 6MT, my thinking is I spend a lot more time driving around and driving to and from the track than I do actually on the track and the enjoyment of the 6MT all the time is worth the little penalty. But if it would be a trailered car like a GT4 I would definitely try to get a PDK car or like my friend who trailers is ZLE, he's always talking about switching to a A10.