Used Value Trend

[Roadhawk]

Aside from my Mustang I've only had one Automatic - a supercharged Mazda Millennia - a really great car - particularly for a FWD. Still I always wished it had been a MT and when we finally let it go I wasn't regretful...of course I replaced it with a MT Audi S4. I' never happy, or feel as engaged, with an automatic. My wife - who drives MT - is always pushing to get an auto...but I resist.

I really wanted to get a Boxster or Caymen (also have considered a Miata or Fiat 125? Abarth)....would only consider in MT....but wife insisted on a sedan....so the 4 BW it is...

 

[MookdocOE]

Everybody in here knows I want an SS MANUAL and there is a gentleman in here with my exact spec! Pricey it is and I already have my super cruiser 5BW with A10 but my other car is either going to be SS or 4BW with manual~ Never thought I would be hunting down a 4BW but It could very well be my ticket for the 3rd pedal!

 

[dinkman]

I will be switching from A10 4BW to 6MT 4BW, I beat all my past lap records with the A10 4BW at my local track and altrough its something that would bother me a bit of I end up being a second or more slower in the 6MT,

thats unfortunately going to happen, its unavoidable.
i was 1second faster in my dct e92 m3 at smaller tracks (lime rock, pocono, njms) and 2s+ at longer ones (watkins glen, monticello, tremblant) than in my manual car. same exact tire/suspension setup
but its a small price to pay for the joy of rowing your own gears

 

[Deneed4spd]

At Spring Mt, the novice 5BWs were running around 4-5 secs faster than novice 4BWs on East track. For north track, 5BWs were running 2-3 secs faster than 4BWs. If you’re in a 4 BW and even if you have had a lot of fast road driving, you really have to hustle in a 4BW to beat out the 5BWs even if they are novices on the track. I have done my fair share of autox and done faster driving on the road but no carving on a caynon nor highway can replicate what you do on a controlled track. You just don’t push your pedal or brake at 100 percent in between turns on a road. I think this is very unique to a track. Especially on an 5BW. Even in autox u can’t really slam the accelerator to 100 percent in a BW nor the brake, you tend to feather it more. There were several motorcycle club racers and shifter kart racers when I went on my 2nd spring mt trip. Motorcycle guys said it’s just very odd to slam on the pedals so hard all the time and carry more speed than you u think u can in the corners. Shifter kart guy was struggling not being able to go so deep into the turn. Track is just very different .

 

[BimmerFan]

I'm not going to cast aspersions on anyone else's driving here, since I don't know you.

My very first track event, I was lapped in my corvette by a kid in a camaro. I learned to be humble, early.

As @Deneed4speed elegantly pointed out, there simply is no comparison.

 

[JKM]

I will be switching from A10 4BW to 6MT 4BW, I beat all my past lap records with the A10 4BW at my local track and altrough its something that would bother me a bit of I end up being a second or more slower in the 6MT, my thinking is I spend a lot more time driving around and driving to and from the track than I do actually on the track and the enjoyment of the 6MT all the time is worth the little penalty. But if it would be a trailered car like a GT4 I would definitely try to get a PDK car or like my friend who trailers is ZLE, he's always talking about switching to a A10.

Sounds like we frequent the same tracks. I'm not expecting my 6MT BW to be quicker than my previous SS 1LE, but hopefully close enough. Like you mentioned, it's more about the enjoyment of the 6MT and daily drivability with this car vs. all-out lap times.

Happy to hear you find the 4BW more engaging than your previous M cars. I was tempted with the M2/M3.

 

[565565]

All this used car prices talk made me think of something.

I have friends who bought Tesla model y long range for the same price(65k) as my ct4 v blackwing in 2022.

Those things are now around 35k best case in the used market. So they’re basically stuck driving a mediocre(at best) badly made unreliable and still rapidly depreciating ev toaster box for the foreseeable future.

Contrast that with us, Even with the numbers we’re seeing we’re just “stuck” driving the 2 greatest practical performance cars of the last decade.

I can think of worse things than that

Tesla Model Y prices are a unique case because Tesla dropped the price on them by like 18k. Also the federal tax incentive means you can get into a brand new Model Y long range for like 40k. New car prices dictate used car prices.

That means he can still sell is car for 5k less than a brand new one.

I highly doubt one can still sell their 4BW for 5k less than a brand new one.

At the rate that 4BW used prices are going, I'm tempted to pick one up in a few years, slap some snow tires on it and use it as my winter beater. I was planning to get a GR Corolla (until I drove it), but the 4BW might be similar money and more fun.

 

[PL69]

Sounds like we frequent the same tracks. I'm not expecting my 6MT BW to be quicker than my previous SS 1LE, but hopefully close enough. Like you mentioned, it's more about the enjoyment of the 6MT and daily drivability with this car vs. all-out lap times.

Happy to hear you find the 4BW more engaging than your previous M cars. I was tempted with the M2/M3.

Thing is with the G80 M3 is that it feels like it was ment to be ZF8/AWD from the ground up and this is even more obvious when you've driven/owned both versions. M2 might actually be the better 6MT version (My friend owns and tracks one and really likes it.

Let me brief up why the G8X platform is a better product from a business perspective and a worst one for the driving enthusiast like some of us. This also explains why it will have a much better resale value than the 4BW.

- BMW M engineers created and incredibly impressive platform with the G8X generation.

- BMW marketing department stepped in and convinced management it needed an aggressive/controversial front end to please the instafame/trendy/simpy crowd (the ones blowing there $$ left and right to look cool on the internet)

- The decision was made this car needed to appeal to a larger audience (to make more $$) so AWD and a smooth auto was mandatory, 6MT still there but just so they can brag about offering a 6MT.

- Bean counters stepped in to make sure margins are at the top (they want advancement in BMW group and like reaching there bonuses) the car was cheapened and detuned ex: the engine cover was already designed for the solid aluminum CSL/CS engine brace in 2021, single sliding piston rear calipers that burn trough OEM pads in a track days or less were used, skinnier rear axles (when a stronger one exists in the catalog) and plenty of small things we are many not aware of.

At the end of the day your left with a much lower % of the passion the engineering team invested into the car. You drive and your like wow it pulls hard, wow it corners like it's on rails, wow it's relatively confortable on long rides (without cf buckets of course), wow I can only have one car because AWD/Auto etc.

You might be happy for a while and maybe even your whole ownership but to someone like me I was always annoyed by stuff like: having to run super aggressive pads so the rears don't burn, the 6MT that didn't want to shift quickly even with the clutch valve delete, the steering that has you basically guessing what the tires are doing (the only info you have is from the seat), burning the tire sidewall even at -3.0 of camber because of the lousy suspension etc.

You hop into the 4 Blackwing and at first your like Humm this feels weird and like driving an older car and then you realise some stuff, everything is easy to use in the car, the cluster even through digital has an actual tachometer, the seats altrough a bit hard and cheaper ça easily accomodate any body size and have great simple adjustability (no need to sacrifice your self to a non-lombare bucket), the suspension when in comfort mode is incredibly forgiving and truly mitigates road imperfections, the chassis feels like it's a solid piece of steel, the brakes are supercar level performers, the steering feel is the perfect blend of luxury and sports car blend, you actually have control over the exhaust sound !!

I could go on with all the small details that were put into the Blackwings that make them a driving enthousiaste pleasure, your never frustrated that a feature isn't there, you never sad that performance was left on the counter for "special/$$ grab" models. Everything is there, all efforts were left in the plate, you don't feel like too much bean counters or marketing gurus had there hands into it..

The BMW M3/4 of today is tailored to the market, the Blackwings are made by ppl like me.

 

[Roadhawk]

"no carving on a caynon nor highway can replicate what you do on a controlled track. You just don’t push your pedal or brake at 100 percent in between turns on a road. I think this is very unique to a track."

I do get that. I will be a novice track driver no doubt...but with some idea/familiarity with triple digit car dynamics and such. I don't seriously think I'll be setting any lap records or such. I'll want to learn and improve.

I did once warp both my front brakes in the MR2 doing an Asheville area to Bristol? VA Blue ridge park drive with the mantra "no motorcycle will pass me"...I pulled off to rest a bit when one finally did (while I was still in NC) and realized I had warped both my front rotors. And I am familiar with using braking to shift the weight around in a car etc. And being fearless helps. I will take out the extra insurance for the track though...fer sure...

 

[BimmerFan]

Thing is with the G80 M3 is...

I came to the BW after two G82 (M4) BMWs.

@PL69 summed it up nicely.

 

[Roadhawk]

"You hop into the 4 Blackwing and at first your like Humm this feels weird and like driving an older car and then you realise some stuff, everything is easy to use in the car, the cluster even through digital has an actual tachometer, the seats altrough a bit hard and cheaper ça easily accomodate any body size and have great simple adjustability (no need to sacrifice your self to a non-lombare bucket), the suspension when in comfort mode is incredibly forgiving and truly mitigates road imperfections, the chassis feels like it's a solid piece of steel, the brakes are supercar level performers, the steering feel is the perfect blend of luxury and sports car blend, you actually have control over the exhaust sound !!"

Very well put.

 

[savethemanual]

Tesla Model Y prices are a unique case because Tesla dropped the price on them by like 18k. Also the federal tax incentive means you can get into a brand new Model Y long range for like 40k. New car prices dictate used car prices.

That means he can still sell is car for 5k less than a brand new one.

I highly doubt one can still sell their 4BW for 5k less than a brand new one.

At the rate that 4BW used prices are going, I'm tempted to pick one up in a few years, slap some snow tires on it and use it as my winter beater. I was planning to get a GR Corolla (until I drove it), but the 4BW might be similar money and more fun.

Yeah, if you bought a model y this year and qualify for the incentives.

As for the winter beater in a few years, hey as long as the blackwing gets driven and not stored away that’s awesome. Also you can already kind of do this- get a used ats v right now , that’s my baseline estimate on how much 4 blackwings would wound up at in a few years. (Although I think the blackwing is gonna wind up doing a little better than that. )

 

[Erving Rodriguez]

Same here. While many driving enthusiasts know these are great cars there are not enough of us anymore to keep the prices from dropping.

Cadillac also has a branding issue when it comes to performance cars. It is not quite at the Buick level but not that far away either. Remember when Buick was cool with the Grand National? That was a cool car I wanted to own.

Anyway, IMO, we owe the the greatness of the Blackwings to the Camaro team who designed a great chassis with excellent driving dynamics with all the performance hardware goodies, Tremec M6 and the A10, E-diff, mag-ride suspension, drive modes, Brembo brakes, etc. I always think of my 4BW as a 4 door version of the Camaro SS 1LE I used to own but with much better visibility and practicality. It is missing two cylinders but it is every bit as powerful as the LT1.

Now that GM and others finally figured out that they can't transition to EVs overnight maybe we will see some of the "Plan B" cars make production?

As a former owner of a 16 V and now a 23 4BW 6mt Road Atlanta edition. With 800 miles so far. I love these cars been that you don’t see 1000s of them everywhere you go. Some people had to look twice to notice what it is!!

 

[Erving Rodriguez]

How is

Maybe demand for blackwings will fall off thus it might hit our values short term, but maybe GM will just stop making them if they have to discount them. But what if I sell mine for a loss now but then wait another year and get one for a decent discount with a free driving school!

the driving school,

Yeah I did...picked it up a few weeks back and drove it from Atlanta (to DC) with about a 3 hr detour through the mountains. {put 700+ miles on it)...then proceeded to get sick for almost 3 weeks and then took it in to the detailer - just got it back after 1 week...seems like I've hardly driven it (but its got 1,000+ miles on it now....so I have driven it a bit).

The drive up was great...but didn't push it too hard. And I've mostly been driving it around in traffic here (and I was having some second thoughts...this thing is just OK nothing special etc not as fast as my GTI...probably true...)....but last 2 days I've gotten it out and pushed it hard. It really shines when you kick it out and it certainly handles well...so yeah I'm convinced - this is a really great car. I really want to just get in it and drive (out to West Virginia and where there are decent curvy mountain roads you can wail on)...but with the holidays and us hosting relatives I'll be in the kitchen the next few days (and drinking a lot)....so it will have to wait. But yeah...I'm sold...its going to be lot of fun. I'll let you know when I can confirm the 189mph top speed...

And the seats are nice.

Same here, my 2008 Mini Cooper JCW with 350whp and 311 wtq around 2,000 lbs. feels a lot faster on a straight line even tho it’s a fully track ready street car. This 2023 ct4 bw road Atlanta is something else. The other day I thought something went wrong and stopped to check tires and such, everything looked good. So continued to another hard ride in the hills and did it again just to realize that I was on track mode with rev match and it pops so hard on deceleration.

 

[Erving Rodriguez]

Anyone know part number for road Atlanta rear window decals?

 

[Rob CT4-V]

Im in DC, we have some fun backroads over in AA county I can take you on for fun drives.

Miss driving there. Spent 40 years up there, most of them in AA county.

 

[Roadhawk]

Miss driving there. Spent 40 years up there, most of them in AA county.

You do? Traffic way to dense iin the entire DC-Baltimore-Annaplis area as far as I'm concerned.

20+ years ago I participated in a race that was initially a point to point patterned after the Cannonball Run (of sorts). It was started (some 15 years prior) by some Navy pilots who ran with a lot of sophisticated electronics (for the time) and always began near Annapolis and finished someplace out in W VA or Western Virginia. By the time I joined it had morphed into a type of (fast) scavenger hunt thingy.

As soon as I discovered it (co-workers were involved) I told some of the guys driving it that it was the race for me and that I was going to beat all of them (to much derision on their part). But it was 3 years before I ever ran in one in part because I wasn't comfortable doing so in AA county or in DC area in general - too much traffic (and enforcement). When they finally moved on entirely out to the West (Shenandoah Valley and beyond) I said Hell Yeah! And proceeded to take the race 3 years in a row, Unfortunately, for various reasons (participants getting older primarily) but also because they were resigned to the possibility that no one would ever be able to beat me )us...our team...with me as driver) they gave it up. Talk over the years to revive it has never led to it happening...

For me the roads with less traffic are vastly preferable. I'm surprised that doesn't exist in ole Miss. I tell you though - folks seem to drive pretty fast down that way...at least in Louisiana and Texas...

 

[Rob CT4-V]

You do? Traffic way to dense iin the entire DC-Baltimore-Annaplis area as far as I'm concerned.

20+ years ago I participated in a race that was initially a point to point patterned after the Cannonball Run (of sorts). It was started (some 15 years prior) by some Navy pilots who ran with a lot of sophisticated electronics (for the time) and always began near Annapolis and finished someplace out in W VA or Western Virginia. By the time I joined it had morphed into a type of (fast) scavenger hunt thingy.

As soon as I discovered it (co-workers were involved) I told some of the guys driving it that it was the race for me and that I was going to beat all of them (to much derision on their part). But it was 3 years before I ever ran in one in part because I wasn't comfortable doing so in AA county or in DC area in general - too much traffic (and enforcement). When they finally moved on entirely out to the West (Shenandoah Valley and beyond) I said Hell Yeah! And proceeded to take the race 3 years in a row, Unfortunately, for various reasons (participants getting older primarily) but also because they were resigned to the possibility that no one would ever be able to beat me )us...our team...with me as driver) they gave it up. Talk over the years to revive it has never led to it happening...

For me the roads with less traffic are vastly preferable. I'm surprised that doesn't exist in ole Miss. I tell you though - folks seem to drive pretty fast down that way...at least in Louisiana and Texas...

Obviously not the beltway, that sucked and still does when I come back to visit. I'm talking about the backroads. AA county has a ton of them. Used to blast down to Annapolis to go to the Mall and then do the same on the way back. All back roads.

We have some good back roads here also. People do drive fast around here but there is usually no traffic at all. Especially not like up north.

 

[Erving Rodriguez]

Miss driving there. Spent 40 years up there, most of them in AA county.

I’ll be in dc in a few days with my 4bw. What are the road that you recommend?

 

[Slick Blackwings]

I’ll be in dc in a few days with my 4bw. What are the road that you recommend?

None, their last month what a nightmare WAY TO BUSY. Bumper to bumper for miles!