Media dumps

[Jameson's Viggen]

For a race for sure! Don't disagree there & ya BMW love to underrate their engines. For a DD and a couple of track days a year it's fine.

I'm hardly going to buy a 340, but for how awesome the 4BW is and for how much Caddy goes on about developing the best handling sedan ever, for the 340 to be less than 8 secs behind on a 3 min lap is good. It just is.

I had an F30 3 series Msport pack.

I know how good an regular 3 series can be.

The issue was it was very competent. It brought nothing to the table worth any passion. I just didn't love it. It didn't feel special. After 2yrs I punted it.

 

[668LT4]

The most significant attribute in favor of the CT4-V Blacking over the M3 is the driving character. The Blackwing has it in spades, the M3 does not. The modern M cars are guilty of being too perfect and refined, and as a result, the driving experience is more sterile and you don't smile the same as when you drive a Blackwing. The 2 things I vastly prefer with the BMW are the interior (both design and quality, it is amazing, as long as it is not the new model with the widescreen dash) and the S58 motor. Damn, that thing pulls so hard, if I could plop it in a CT4-V Blackwing it would be a slice of Heaven. Both great cars, and in automatic I think it is a harder decision, but for anyone who wants the 6MT, you can't possibly drive both and prefer the BMW. I recall an M3 review that said something along the lines of "don't save the manuals with this car", and most every M3/M4 review states that the automatic Competition versions are absolutely the best of the platform. Ironically, it is just the opposite with Blackwing, where the cars were designed to most delight with manual transmissions.

 

[NorCal Blackwing]

I think with an American publication (C&D, R&T, etc), the Blackwing will win; how could it not when they have been championing "save the manuals" for the better part of a decade?

In European publications (Evo, etc), the BMW will win for being a better daily driving proposition, better 'quality' and 'better able to handle our totally special and unique roads' -- this is also why the C8 Z06 would almost certainly come third in a hypothetical matchup with the GT4RS and M4 CSL in European comparisons.

Of course, it doesn't really matter because it seems what journalists love rarely equates to what the public wants to buy, or at least the public willing and able to write the check!

 

[vj123]

I custom ordered a G80 M3 early this year and sold mine after owning it for 4 months. Below are my thoughts which i shared in BMW G80 forum.

I have owned my G80 for 4 months with 4200 miles on the clock and it has been one of the best vehicles I have ever owned. It met most of my expectations across categories (looks, performance, practicality) which I would expect from a BMW or a M vehicle. This vehicle is not my daily driver but I drive it regularly during weekends and occasionally during weekdays. In my case, I feel the vehicle is too refined than what I was personally expecting.

In 2021, I ended up getting one of the last F87 allocation and I zeroed in that vehicle as it had the last DCT from BMW and was old school compared to other vehicles in the market. After a short TD, I ended up cancelling it as it was too small for my wants / liking and eyeing a G80 since then. G80 transmission in S3 mode is pretty intense and is close to a DCT. Not sure if having DCT in this platform would have added more drama to the whole experience.

Most of us chose this platform for the manual gearbox option. Would I have been more happy with a manual? Maybe. I drove manuals most part of my life but I gave it up last decade due to health issues. So manual option was never in the books.

Adding an exhaust might improve the drama? Maybe. I have had AWE exhausts on several vehicles in the past and was very happy. I have been eyeing on that for a while and installing that might add more drama to the experience.

To conclude, I feel G80 is a perfect DD and Grand Tourer. I still smile every time when I crank up the engine. Not sure if I had very high expectations from this platform and my first M. My wife likes this vehicle and wants me to keep it. I bought this vehicle with an intention of keeping it for a very long time but I am not sure if thats going to happen.

If I end up selling, I am considering Camaro ZL1 1LE or CT5 Blackwing (I know they are totally different vehicles) as 4 seats is a must. Camaro ZL1 is not really practical and CT5 BW is above my current budget. I am at cross roads and not sure how things are going to pan in the near future.

 

[raptor5244]

I custom ordered a G80 M3 early this year and sold mine after owning it for 4 months. Below are my thoughts which i shared in BMW G80 forum.

I have owned my G80 for 4 months with 4200 miles on the clock and it has been one of the best vehicles I have ever owned. It met most of my expectations across categories (looks, performance, practicality) which I would expect from a BMW or a M vehicle. This vehicle is not my daily driver but I drive it regularly during weekends and occasionally during weekdays. In my case, I feel the vehicle is too refined than what I was personally expecting.

In 2021, I ended up getting one of the last F87 allocation and I zeroed in that vehicle as it had the last DCT from BMW and was old school compared to other vehicles in the market. After a short TD, I ended up cancelling it as it was too small for my wants / liking and eyeing a G80 since then. G80 transmission in S3 mode is pretty intense and is close to a DCT. Not sure if having DCT in this platform would have added more drama to the whole experience.

Most of us chose this platform for the manual gearbox option. Would I have been more happy with a manual? Maybe. I drove manuals most part of my life but I gave it up last decade due to health issues. So manual option was never in the books.

Adding an exhaust might improve the drama? Maybe. I have had AWE exhausts on several vehicles in the past and was very happy. I have been eyeing on that for a while and installing that might add more drama to the experience.

To conclude, I feel G80 is a perfect DD and Grand Tourer. I still smile every time when I crank up the engine. Not sure if I had very high expectations from this platform and my first M. My wife likes this vehicle and wants me to keep it. I bought this vehicle with an intention of keeping it for a very long time but I am not sure if thats going to happen.

If I end up selling, I am considering Camaro ZL1 1LE or CT5 Blackwing (I know they are totally different vehicles) as 4 seats is a must. Camaro ZL1 is not really practical and CT5 BW is above my current budget. I am at cross roads and not sure how things are going to pan in the near future.

The Camaro ZL1 1LE is a very different beast than the standard ZL1. The 1LE suspension and Supercar 3R tires are not ideal if you plan on it being a daily driver. Choose carefully depending on your requirements.

 

[vj123]

The Camaro ZL1 1LE is a very different beast than the standard ZL1. The 1LE suspension and Supercar 3R tires are not idea if you plan on it being a daily driver. Choose carefully depending on your requirements.

A good friend of mine has a ZLE and I had a chance to experience it. Its a little extreme but I think thats my expectation at this point of my life. If I end up buying a ZLE, I will be swapping the stock tires which might improve the ride a little and this wont be my DD.

I see that you traded your ZLE for a 4BW. What are your thoughts on driver engagement with this switch.

 

[raptor5244]

A good friend of mine has a ZLE and I had a chance to experience it. Its a little extreme but I think thats my expectation at this point of my life. If I end up buying a ZLE, I will be swapping the stock tires which might improve the ride a little and this wont be my DD.

I see that you traded your ZLE for a 4BW. What are your thoughts on driver engagement with this switch.

I actually had a standard ZL1 that comes with magnetic ride instead of the DSSV suspension and the Goodyear F1 Supercar tires on 20"s instead of the 19" 3R slicks.

As far as the ZL1 vs the 4BW, they are obviously quite different cars so it really just comes down to that you want most of the of car and how you plan to use it.

From a driving perspective:

Visibility - Camaro visibility is pretty terrible. Sure you can get used to it and the rear view mirror camera helps but you still feel like you are looking out a tank and it takes away some enjoyment IMO. The 4BW with its 4 doors and great seating position is much better in this area.

Handling - the ZL1 feels like a proper race car, so if you are looking primarily for a track vehicle the ZLE/ZL1 is the more dialed in, hardcore track car. That said, the 4BW feels much more nimble. I prefer the slightly smaller proportions of the 4BW over the Camaro. The steering in the ZL1 is pretty heavy, even in Tour mode. There is a lot of weight over the nose with that big LT4. The steering in the 4BW is much more tunable. In Tour is really light, I keep it in Sport, Track it is quite heavy. I also prefer the 4BW steering wheel itself, better grip, button layout with all the updated V mode, PTM controls. You also get Magride 4.0 in the BWs, which is noticeably better. I can truly tell the difference between the suspension modes now, not so much on the Camaro.

Seats/Interior - the Camaro gets some really good heated/ventilated alcantara Recaro seats but the the BW interiors are much nicer IMO as you would expect from a Cadillac vs. Camaro. However, they come at a pretty significant cost on the Cadillac. For example, $5500 add-on to get leather with ventilated seats that comes standard on the ZL1.

Tech - I love the updated gauges, front parking sensors (once I get the darn retrofit), brake by wire and the ability to dial in the pedal firmness.

Performance - the ZL1 is obviously faster but really only in the 60-130mph range. The 4BW is a low 12 sec car and the ZL1 is mid 11s stock. So on the street the 4BW feels plenty quick and fun with the M6 transmission. The ZL1 with the M6 has really tall gearing, which I really don't like on the street. 60mph in 1st, 83mph in 2nd, 113mph in 3rd. It is great on a road course but if you like to wind out the gears on the street it you need to find some space for it to stretch its legs. The 4BW Tremec is geared like a standard Camaro, which enables you to wind out them out a little bit more but still a challenge on the street. If you are looking at the A10 then they perform pretty much the same. The ZL1 uses the 10L90 with higher torque handling capacity and the Camaro/4BW gets the 10L80. Fast shifts, great trans but just not engaging enough for me in a car like this.

Sound - ZL1 with the supercharger whine is the better soundtrack but the 4BW is not bad. It has great control over the sound with the exhaust valves. I think the 4BW sounds better from outside the car than inside. With the windows down it sounds decent to me but there is no competing with a V8 exhaust note. If the 4BW had the LT1 V8 it would be perfect IMO. That said, the LF4 turbo V6 seems to respond very well to tuning. You can make some big power with this V6 if you are so inclined.

Wheels/Tires/Brake - the ZL1 gets 20"s with Supercar F1, the ZLE 19"s with 3Rs and the 4BW gets 18"s with these well behaved street friendly Michelin PS4S tires, which deliver a much more comfortable ride than the ZL1 and they cost quite a bit less to replace and last a lot longer. They all get 6 piston Brembos up front and 4 pistons in the rear, the rotors and calipers are a little bigger on the Camaros to handle the additional speed and weight. They all feel like they stop on a dime with their sticky tires.

I really enjoyed the Camaro but I prefer the 4BW more. It is just more enjoyable and comfortable to drive on the street. It is a more usable car and ticks more boxes for me right now. If you are looking for something more hardcore and plan to hit the track a lot then the ZLE is the better car IMO, especially if you hit tracks with higher speeds. The ZL1 is better if you plan to daily drive it more since the suspension won't beat you up as much and don't need/want all the aero (big wing, canards, etc.). The 4BW is the better all around performance sedan and the 5BW is the ultimate performance sedan but the cost of admission is quite a bit more than the Camaros or C7 Z06 with the LT4.

 

[RDATLTE]

I have both a ZL1 1LE and a 4 BW. The 4 BW scratches the itch where I don't drive the ZL1 1LE nearly as much as I used to.

 

[M2Cto4BW]

That's one way to avoid ADM. Concise overview this

 

[vj123]

I really enjoyed the Camaro but I prefer the 4BW more. It is just more enjoyable and comfortable to drive on the street. It is a more usable car and ticks more boxes for me right now. If you are looking for something more hardcore and plan to hit the track a lot then the ZLE is the better car IMO, especially if you hit tracks with higher speeds. The ZL1 is better if you plan to daily drive it more since the suspension won't beat you up as much and don't need/want all the aero (big wing, canards, etc.). The 4BW is the better all around performance sedan and the 5BW is the ultimate performance sedan but the cost of admission is quite a bit more than the Camaros or C7 Z06 with the LT4.

Thats a comprehensive review on both vehicles and really appreciate your time & effort in putting it together.

Since this purchase will not be a DD, I am looking for something which will be a little extreme. I totally agree that 5BW will be the ultimate choice and the only thing which is keeping me away from it is the price. Its nice that we still have amazing options in the market and GM is definitely hitting it out of the park with these vehicles. I might still have some time in taking the final call and didnt want to get something in a hurry.

 

[raptor5244]

Thats a comprehensive review on both vehicles and really appreciate your time & effort in putting it together.

Since this purchase will not be a DD, I am looking for something which will be a little extreme. I totally agree that 5BW will be the ultimate choice and the only thing which is keeping me away from it is the price. Its nice that we still have amazing options in the market and GM is definitely hitting it out of the park with these vehicles. I might still have some time in taking the final call and didnt want to get something in a hurry.

You're welcome. Best of luck.

 

[ClassaxV]

A good friend of mine has a ZLE and I had a chance to experience it. Its a little extreme but I think thats my expectation at this point of my life. If I end up buying a ZLE, I will be swapping the stock tires which might improve the ride a little and this wont be my DD.

I see that you traded your ZLE for a 4BW. What are your thoughts on driver engagement with this switch.

I had the same experience with the ZL1. I live less than 15 minutes from a racetrack and my experience with the Zl1 was that it just isn't very accessible on the street and was just too much car for the tight tracks I normally would be running. In part it drove my decision to go with a CT4 instead of the CT5.

 

[vj123]

I had the same experience with the ZL1. I live less than 15 minutes from a racetrack and my experience with the Zl1 was that it just isn't very accessible on the street and was just too much car for the tight tracks I normally would be running. In part it drove my decision to go with a CT4 instead of the CT5.

Yeah, ZL1 has way too much power to be driven on regular roads and one can easily get into trouble.

 

[rdollie]

I think he likes it...

 

[raptor5244]

Yeah, ZL1 has way too much power to be driven on regular roads and one can easily get into trouble.

 

[ernsteeng]

I think he likes it...

I don't know. He sure didn't talk about it very glowingly.

 

[jbawden]

Appreciate the ZL1 reviews. That was my backup plan had I been denied a 5BW allocation. I wasn't considering a 4BW, however, I really think I would enjoy it a LOT more than I think I would. It stings a little to say this, but I really think the LF4 was the right choice for the goals and objectives of the 4BW.

If the ZL1 is "too powerful" for the street, then that begs the question that the 5BW is too? The high performance BEV are the ones that scare me. The 0-40 happens so rapidly the human brain cannot process all the important input.

 

[Ivy1Le]

BMW fanboys will claim the M3 is better without ever driving a BlackWing. They know better than professionals living with both cars for months lol.

I don't think that's true at all. My experience is quite the opposite actually. People who drive american cars only or prefer american won't even touch anything else yet deem it trash. The car people I hang out with most actually fit into this category lol won't touch it if it's not a V8 and won't touch it if it's german. So.. they have owned 2 car brands

It's been my experience that most of those "fanboys" are internet trolls who can't afford either of the two vehicles. The people who actually own some of these high dollar M vehicles on bimmerpost drive a vast array of cars.

 

[raptor5244]

Appreciate the ZL1 reviews. That was my backup plan had I been denied a 5BW allocation. I wasn't considering a 4BW, however, I really think I would enjoy it a LOT more than I think I would. It stings a little to say this, but I really think the LF4 was the right choice for the goals and objectives of the 4BW.

If the ZL1 is "too powerful" for the street, then that begs the question that the 5BW is too? The high performance BEV are the ones that scare me. The 0-40 happens so rapidly the human brain cannot process all the important input.

The 5BW is in the same situation as the ZL1 from a usable power perspective. I think the big difference is the packaging. The 5BW is a luxury sport sedan that happens to have a supercharged V8 and manual transmission option. I also think the 5BW buyers are not as hardcore as the ZL1 buyer. I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle.

I love the LF4, it is better in a lot of ways for a daily driver. From an enthusiast perspective, I wished it sounded like a V8 but it still sounds pretty good.

I own a Tesla as well. The BEVs acceleration is very smooth with no drama so you can't compare it to an ICE based vehicle banging through gears.

 

[rubberduck]

Not hardcore? Not on public roads. When I was much younger I was stupid and didn’t think much of the consequences or of the lives of other people. I suppose if one doesn’t have much self-control or thinks every shift has to be at redline to enjoy themselves, a Camaro or 5BW will land them without a drivers license or worse killing somebody.