Manual trans owners--both 4 and 5

[BKC1]

This just in: Cadillac owners don't know how to bleed a clutch.

This complaint has been leveled against the T-56 and TR-6060 since the Gen 1 CTS-V.

The only thing I'll say GM is guilty of is not putting a remote bleeder line in standard.

 

[MatthewAMEL]

This just in: Cadillac owners don't know how to bleed a clutch.

This complaint has been leveled against the T-56 and TR-6060 since the Gen 1 CTS-V.

The only thing I'll say GM is guilty of is not putting a remote bleeder line in standard.

You don't bleed the clutch in an Alpha chassis car. The procedure is 100 clutch pumps with the engine not running to cycle fluid.

 

[BKC1]

You don't bleed the clutch in an Alpha chassis car. The procedure is 100 clutch pumps with the engine not running to cycle fluid.

Whoever told you that is playing an elaborate joke on you.

It's still the same hydraulic system that's been in every GM car back to the C5 Corvette. Pumping the pedal doesn't cycle fluid. There's no outlet in the system--you're moving a several CCs back and forth about 2". To bleed the clutch, you need a remote bleeder line (an outlet) to move it elsewhere.

Tick Performance Clutch Line for 2010-2015 Camaro V8, 2014-2017 Chevy SS, 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP, 2009-2015 Cadillac CTS-V, 2016-2019 Cadillac ATS-V

This line is easy to install and does not require transmission removal. Just remove your stock line, install ours and put a fresh bleed on your system; all of which can be done in less than an hour. With this line installed, your hydraulic system will work as efficiently as the stock master...

www.tickperformance.com

All hydraulic systems leak air (better ones leak less). Air contains water. Brake/clutch fluid is hydroscopic, meaning it absorbs water and distributes it throughout the fluid. When water gets hot, it boils, which creates a bubble at the local high point in the system. Bubbles compress under pressure and reduce the amount of travel that the slave generates on a pedal push. There's margin in the system to account for this (and also so that you don't have to put your foot on the floor to shift), but since GM uses the smallest master necessary to make the clutch disengage, there's very little margin. This minimizes pedal effort, but results in low clutch engagement height and increases the required fluid maintenance interval.

Once your fluid absorbs water beyond about 2% you must replace it. If don't keep up with it, the moisture content in the fluid + clutch heat will result in a bubble in the slave, which is annoying to remove. There's a high point in the slave (I don't care whether you have OEM or a Tilton 6000 series, they all do), and you have to generate high fluid velocity when bleeding the clutch to evacuate the bubble.

I love the V series cars, but there's a large percentage of owners that are some of the dumbest people to walk the planet. If you believe that your brakes or clutch don't require bleeding every 6-12 months because it's a Cadillac, you're in the wrong car. At this point, there's literally 20 years of CTS-V forum posts (not to mention every other platform that uses the T-56 and TR-6060) explaining how to fix the 1-2 crunch and difficulty going into reverse.

TLDR:

Bleed the f**ing clutch, even if the car is new. Get yourself a moisture tester--they cost less than $15. On the 1-2 shift, remember to put the pedal all the way down--most "experienced" drivers don't always do this because the torque in 1st (even in street driving) pushes them back into the seat and sorta short-circuits their brain.

Amazon.com

^ Note, I don't particularly recommend any model. These things are dime a dozen and they all work great.

 

[Neveready]

The tech said he bled the clutch and there was a little air in the lines but it certainly wasn't the cause to the problem (his words). The fluid was absolutely fine, that amount of moisture doesn't form in 10 months let alone 3 years. FWIW I personally checked the fluid with that exact moisture tester as a baseline for one of my other cars and it had 0% moisture.

Do you honestly think GM would allow a $100k+ payout, supply a new transmission and pay thousands in warranty work and not beed a clutch

The issue I had was during light throttle low rpm situations when in traffic, a subdivision, etc. I didn't have any problems with it when I was ripping on it. The problem most of us had was inconsistent engagement, if air in the lines was the problem it would consistently shift like garbage in all gears at any rpm

 

[DCV]

In both of my V2’s, the clutch fluid developed a cap of crud floating on top of the fluid in the master cylinder. Note I bought both of them used. Anyhow, I used paper towels to take it out then I used a syringe to suck out most of the fluid, but left enough in NOT to get air in the system, then filled the master cylinder reservoir with the OEM clutch fluid. When I did that I could see dirty fluid coming up and mixing with the new stuff. So I did this process once more and no more dirty fluid.

 

[MatthewAMEL]

Whoever told you that is playing an elaborate joke on you.

It's still the same hydraulic system that's been in every GM car back to the C5 Corvette. Pumping the pedal doesn't cycle fluid. There's no outlet in the system--you're moving a several CCs back and forth about 2". To bleed the clutch, you need a remote bleeder line (an outlet) to move it elsewhere.

Tick Performance Clutch Line for 2010-2015 Camaro V8, 2014-2017 Chevy SS, 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP, 2009-2015 Cadillac CTS-V, 2016-2019 Cadillac ATS-V

This line is easy to install and does not require transmission removal. Just remove your stock line, install ours and put a fresh bleed on your system; all of which can be done in less than an hour. With this line installed, your hydraulic system will work as efficiently as the stock master...

www.tickperformance.com

All hydraulic systems leak air (better ones leak less). Air contains water. Brake/clutch fluid is hydroscopic, meaning it absorbs water and distributes it throughout the fluid. When water gets hot, it boils, which creates a bubble at the local high point in the system. Bubbles compress under pressure and reduce the amount of travel that the slave generates on a pedal push. There's margin in the system to account for this (and also so that you don't have to put your foot on the floor to shift), but since GM uses the smallest master necessary to make the clutch disengage, there's very little margin. This minimizes pedal effort, but results in low clutch engagement height and increases the required fluid maintenance interval.

Once your fluid absorbs water beyond about 2% you must replace it. If don't keep up with it, the moisture content in the fluid + clutch heat will result in a bubble in the slave, which is annoying to remove. There's a high point in the slave (I don't care whether you have OEM or a Tilton 6000 series, they all do), and you have to generate high fluid velocity when bleeding the clutch to evacuate the bubble.

I love the V series cars, but there's a large percentage of owners that are some of the dumbest people to walk the planet. If you believe that your brakes or clutch don't require bleeding every 6-12 months because it's a Cadillac, you're in the wrong car. At this point, there's literally 20 years of CTS-V forum posts (not to mention every other platform that uses the T-56 and TR-6060) explaining how to fix the 1-2 crunch and difficulty going into reverse.

TLDR:

Bleed the f**ing clutch, even if the car is new. Get yourself a moisture tester--they cost less than $15. On the 1-2 shift, remember to put the pedal all the way down--most "experienced" drivers don't always do this because the torque in 1st (even in street driving) pushes them back into the seat and sorta short-circuits their brain.

Amazon.com

^ Note, I don't particularly recommend any model. These things are dime a dozen and they all work great.

Bleeding the clutch is virtually never required under normal (and even spirited) use. The fluid simply doesn't get hot enough to present the same issue as boiled brake fluid. Saying you must replace fluid when it hit 2% is a made up number. What brand fluid? In what application? 90% of cars on the road are running around with much higher than 2% in their hydraulic systems and work just fine. Almost all 'good' fluid will hit 5% water in 6 months. That's why the wet boiling temp is published. At that point you are changing because you need absolute best performance, or you are worried about water causing corrosion. Even the OEM service intervals don't have anything but the bleeding of brakes until the fluid is 5 years old. No one with Blackwings is going to wait that long, hopefully, but there it is.

The Tick line you posted has nothing to do with adding a bleed port, it's to 'cure' the insufficient fluid delivery in aftermarket clutches in the Gen5 Camaro, Chevy SS and last gen CTS-V. This problem DOES NOT EXIST with the OEM line and the TR-6060 in 6th Gen Alpha and up. There are generic -6060 remote bleed lines avail if it's really something that worries you. But getting that line onto the OEM bleed port is infamously difficult.

As for the 100 clutch pedal pumps? We have been using it on the 6th Gen for years. Works great. It was part of my pre-HPDE regimen every year.

How to Bleed/ Flush Brake and Clutch Fluid System - CAMARO6

How to Bleed/ Flush Brake and Clutch Fluid System Camaro DIY & HOW-TO instructions & discussions

www.camaro6.com

 

[pmsteinm]

With my V2 I did the fluid exchange trick with a syringe a few times over the 14 years of ownership. I also had crud floating on the top a couple of times (I was the only owner of the car). My memory is fuzzy but I think the OEM service manuals either didn't have anything about bleeding, or they had instructions that would not work since there was no bleed port (i.e. the copy pasted from the Corvette or something). So I never did a clutch bleed. I did do the brake fluid, rear diff, manual transmission fluid, and both coolant loops a few times over the years.

 

[My1stCadillac]

I have about 4,500 miles on my replacement transmission - 5,650 total miles on the car. The car was recently in the dealership getting the wiring harness recall fixed and the technician noticed the same transmission whine/howl that I have been noticing lately. They could not address this at the same time as the recall, so they asked me to bring the car back in. They are now dealing with the local General Motors rep determining if they will rip apart the new transmission to find the problem or put a second replacement transmission in the car.

The 4BW Manual transmission ownership experience has been less than stellar.

 

[SS_Shooter]

If you believe that your brakes or clutch don't require bleeding every 6-12 months because it's a Cadillac, you're in the wrong car.

I'm not sure about that...

I had my V1 for 35,000 miles and my V2 for 40,000 miles, and I never had to bleed the clutch or the brakes. Same with a whole bunch of other performance cars, some of which saw track use. In fact, the only cars I've had that required even occasional brake or clutch bleeding were race cars.

It's pretty clear when a clutch isn't fully disengaging. It will fight you into 1st and reverse, not wanting to go in without a big crunch. And it will fight you on downshifts if there is even the slightest mismatch in revs.

I've heard stories of people boiling their low-temp brake fluid in street cars during track days, which requires the brakes to then be bled, but I've never actually seen that happen.

 

[BKC1]

I'm not sure about that...

I had my V1 for 35,000 miles and my V2 for 40,000 miles, and I never had to bleed the clutch or the brakes. Same with a whole bunch of other performance cars, some of which saw track use. In fact, the only cars I've had that required even occasional brake or clutch bleeding were race cars.

It's pretty clear when a clutch isn't fully disengaging. It will fight you into 1st and reverse, not wanting to go in without a big crunch. And it will fight you on downshifts if there is even the slightest mismatch in revs.

I've heard stories of people boiling their low-temp brake fluid in street cars during track days, which requires the brakes to then be bled, but I've never actually seen that happen.

I've bled my V1's clutch and brakes every 6k miles (every other oil change) because it needs it and everybody that I know that drives the car hard does fluid changes on a similar interval. Sounds like you're a highway cruiser. You're spending a lot of money for capability you're not using, but it's your right to spend your money the way you want.

 

[My1stCadillac]

I picked up my 2022 CT4V BW Manual Transmission car new in January of 2023. In June of 2023 a local dealership replaced the transmission because it would get stuck in second gear. As noted in my 12/14/23 post, a different dealership noticed the same whining from the replacement transmission that I had noticed. The car has been at the second dealership since 1/2/24 (today is 3/10/24). Attached is a picture of the car that I took this past Friday.

The dealership has been very nice but they seemed to have gotten jerked around by GM. GM was supposed to have had one of their engineers help the dealer diagnose the problem. After about 5 weeks of waiting, the engineer never looked at my car but did tell the dealer to pull the transmission apart to figure out the problem.

After substantial delay, GM finally sent a transmisison expert to help the dealer diagnose the car. They isolated the problem to the countershaft and idler gears. They were going to order parts but then GM told them to just order a whole new transmission. So more than two months without my car I am waiting for the second replacement transmission to show up so it can be installed.

The car has less than 6,500 miles on it. This is the most expensive car I have ever purchased and the worst ownership experienced I have ever had. I call BS on all the positive youtube reviews of the manual transmisison blackwing cars. I can only assume the press cars were assembeled differently from the cars coming off the line.

 

[Slick Blackwings]

MAN I FEEL YOUR PAIN! I’d be crying for sure, hope it works out for you.

 

[savethemanual]

I picked up my 2022 CT4V BW Manual Transmission car new in January of 2023. In June of 2023 a local dealership replaced the transmission because it would get stuck in second gear. As noted in my 12/14/23 post, a different dealership noticed the same whining from the replacement transmission that I had noticed. The car has been at the second dealership since 1/2/24 (today is 3/10/24). Attached is a picture of the car that I took this past Friday.

The dealership has been very nice but they seemed to have gotten jerked around by GM. GM was supposed to have had one of their engineers help the dealer diagnose the problem. After about 5 weeks of waiting, the engineer never looked at my car but did tell the dealer to pull the transmission apart to figure out the problem.

After substantial delay, GM finally sent a transmisison expert to help the dealer diagnose the car. They isolated the problem to the countershaft and idler gears. They were going to order parts but then GM told them to just order a whole new transmission. So more than two months without my car I am waiting for the second replacement transmission to show up so it can be installed.

The car has less than 6,500 miles on it. This is the most expensive car I have ever purchased and the worst ownership experienced I have ever had. I call BS on all the positive youtube reviews of the manual transmisison blackwing cars. I can only assume the press cars were assembeled differently from the cars coming off the line.

I would just ask Cadillac to lemon it.

 

[Newt214]

Sorry to hear that. Mine is still the same since the repair--better than it was/not as good as it should be, but liveable. I think you need to lemon this one and start over. Just curious, but why did they drop the engine? And if they tore the trans apart to diagnose it, why is it intact on the floor? Not doubting you, but what you were told doesn't seem to fit with that pic?

 

[My1stCadillac]

I asked the service manager why they dropped the engine and he said that is how they do the job. The first dealer did not drop the engine but did pull the rear bumper cover off.
Also, they are required to reassemble the transmission to return it in the same box the new one comes in.

 

[Throat Yogurt]

I picked up my 2022 CT4V BW Manual Transmission car new in January of 2023. In June of 2023 a local dealership replaced the transmission because it would get stuck in second gear. As noted in my 12/14/23 post, a different dealership noticed the same whining from the replacement transmission that I had noticed. The car has been at the second dealership since 1/2/24 (today is 3/10/24). Attached is a picture of the car that I took this past Friday.

The dealership has been very nice but they seemed to have gotten jerked around by GM. GM was supposed to have had one of their engineers help the dealer diagnose the problem. After about 5 weeks of waiting, the engineer never looked at my car but did tell the dealer to pull the transmission apart to figure out the problem.

After substantial delay, GM finally sent a transmisison expert to help the dealer diagnose the car. They isolated the problem to the countershaft and idler gears. They were going to order parts but then GM told them to just order a whole new transmission. So more than two months without my car I am waiting for the second replacement transmission to show up so it can be installed.

The car has less than 6,500 miles on it. This is the most expensive car I have ever purchased and the worst ownership experienced I have ever had. I call BS on all the positive youtube reviews of the manual transmisison blackwing cars. I can only assume the press cars were assembeled differently from the cars coming off the line.

I'm sorry this has happened to you and your car turned out to be such a lemon. What you have had to go through really sucks, and in the same position I would be livid, as you are.

I can say, though, that my and nearly every other MT owner's experience has echoed the multitude of reviews of this transmission, that yes it has its quirks, but when broken in and warmed up it is one of the best manuals in recent memory.

 

[coffee_time]

I'm sorry this has happened to you and your car turned out to be such a lemon. What you have had to go through really sucks, and in the same position I would be livid, as you are.

I can say, though, that my and nearly every other MT owner's experience has echoed the multitude of reviews of this transmission, that yes it has its quirks, but when broken in and warmed up it is one of the best manuals in recent memory.

Yeah really the only problem I have with the transmission is when it's cold that 1-2 shift is a little crunchy.

 

[rubberduck]

No 1-2 crunchiness for me, maybe because I live in Southern Arizona. But I did have it up north in the snow for a couple days and it was also fine. My only issue is it gets really hot (200F) in the summer in stop-and-go traffic. For most people the Tremec works great, unfortunately you have a lemon.

 

[Neveready]

I picked up my 2022 CT4V BW Manual Transmission car new in January of 2023. In June of 2023 a local dealership replaced the transmission because it would get stuck in second gear. As noted in my 12/14/23 post, a different dealership noticed the same whining from the replacement transmission that I had noticed. The car has been at the second dealership since 1/2/24 (today is 3/10/24). Attached is a picture of the car that I took this past Friday.

The dealership has been very nice but they seemed to have gotten jerked around by GM. GM was supposed to have had one of their engineers help the dealer diagnose the problem. After about 5 weeks of waiting, the engineer never looked at my car but did tell the dealer to pull the transmission apart to figure out the problem.

After substantial delay, GM finally sent a transmisison expert to help the dealer diagnose the car. They isolated the problem to the countershaft and idler gears. They were going to order parts but then GM told them to just order a whole new transmission. So more than two months without my car I am waiting for the second replacement transmission to show up so it can be installed.

The car has less than 6,500 miles on it. This is the most expensive car I have ever purchased and the worst ownership experienced I have ever had. I call BS on all the positive youtube reviews of the manual transmisison blackwing cars. I can only assume the press cars were assembeled differently from the cars coming off the line.

This is unbelievable and I’m so sorry I know what your going through; I’d be nauseous just seeing my car go through this much and I would not be comfortable keeping it even if it seems they repaired it. Based on the service history they don’t have enough grip on situation to fully repair it, nor should they be expected to.

The GM experts have admitted that this is a problem on multiple occasions. How many transmissions does it take for them to give up on this hot mess and lemon the car? IF they get it back together running, something tells me it’s more than the transmission causing the problems and it may have a whole list of new issues to deal with. These cars are way too complex to be pulled apart back and forth like a Lego set.

The only way to make this right is for GM to step up and lemon this car out on your behalf. This is a safety issue and a liability if God forbid, something happens to your family because they assumed they resolved the issue. Back in the 90s I had a Chevy Nova and the CV joint went and my car got stuck over a railroad track. Luckily a mailman jumped out and helped me push it off the tracks. I was 16 years old and It was frightening. Cadillac…GM does not need that kind of publicity right now.

It’s never too late to call corporate and express your concerns, at the very least it may provide closure but they may choose to take care of you. They were very good to me, and helped me so much so I immediately bought a 24 model to replace it.

How would you feel about getting another Blackwing if they offered you a full buyback?

Please keep us posted on how this unfolds.

 

[My1stCadillac]

A full buyback would be ideal. I like the car enough to consider a new one if it was completely sorted with no evidence of flaws. I would need to go over it with a fine tooth comb and have a flawless test drive before I would part with my money again on one of these.

If Toyota made a car that was remotely comparable, I would buy it in the blink of an eye because of their reputation for quality. Unfortunately the market for cars with 400 plus HP with 4 doors, great driving dynamics, RWD and a manual or quick shifting automatic are very limited. Not sure the IS500 would live up. The cost of ownership for German cars is off putting. Electric cars are unappealing to me.

I’m pretty angry and bummed out about the whole situation. Between the original transmission replacement and this current debacle, I will have been without my car for over 4 months because of warranty repairs.