For the sake of resale value I hope this is a mistake

[raptor5244]

My problem with the Camaro is the vision, it's one of the worst cars ever. For the rest it's a better package for track usage, N/A engine with precise response, less weight and cheaper.

If the 4BW wouldn't of existed I would own a Camaro, these suckers keep pace with GT4s !!

The poor cave-like visibility definitely hurt Camaro sales over the years. It is arguably the best muscle car of the bunch. Better chassis, lighter, best Magride in the business, excellent Tremec M6 and the A10 was a nice improvement over the A8. It was the best performing car but the reality is that doesn't necessarily mean it will sell the best. Styling, ergonomics, driving position, visibility, etc. all factory in as well.

FWIW, you do get used to the Camaro lack of visibility. It is not great, but the tech does help, I really liked the rear view mirror camera once you get used to it, combined with properly adjusted side mirrors, blind spot monitoring and HD backup camera you can see everything but you need to get used to relying on the tech.

 

[Catified]

AWD 5BW, yuck. Guessing a non-owner said that.

Great line btw. Very funny!
It's a personal preference thing. I've had a 700hp+ rear wheel drive car for the last several years.I get the driver involvement and fun aspect of such a car.. 5 - 10 years ago I'd have been similarly horrified at the thought of an all wheel drive performance car, however time has softened those views. A decade on, practicality, comfort, along with instant speed and traction would be my desire. Switchable all wheel drive seems like a good compromise, with. as far as I can tell, no appreciable down side (weight maybe)? I'd say the majority of owners will probably never track the car (myself included) but will daily or street drive it and sometimes in wet weather (depending on what part of the country you"re in). Me, I prefer a Jack of all trades with a touch of supercar thrown in: CT5V Blackwing AWD. Not gonna happen, just my personal wishlist.

 

[565565]

It's a personal preference thing. I've had a 700hp+ rear wheel drive car for the last several years.I get the driver involvement and fun aspect of such a car.. 5 - 10 years ago I'd have been similarly horrified at the thought of an all wheel drive performance car, however time has softened those views. A decade on, practicality, comfort, along with instant speed and traction would be my desire. Switchable all wheel drive seems like a good compromise, with. as far as I can tell, no appreciable down side (weight maybe)? I'd say the majority of owners will probably never track the car (myself included) but will daily or street drive it and sometimes in wet weather (depending on what part of the country you"re in). Me, I prefer a Jack of all trades with a touch of supercar thrown in: CT5V Blackwing AWD. Not gonna happen, just my personal wishlist.

The issue is that Cadillac has tried to do that before, copy BMW at their own game. They even made a large sedan with a hot V twin turbo 4something liter DOHC V8 with AWD, and infused it with GM handling. It was killed almost immediately after it debuted due to out of control costs and low volume sales.

Despite all the BMW hate, BMW is very good at what they do. It’s hard to out BMW BMW. With the Blackwing GM decided to make the anti-M5. It’s everything that the M5 isn’t and found success in a group of buyers that want something very different from an M5. Honestly if Cadillac made something similar to a BMW M3/M5 for a slightly better price most people are going to get the BMW, why get the knockoff if you can get the real thing for just a bit more?

Honesty driving down the highway in the 5BW I feel like I’m in the best daily driver car that fits the large rear facing car seat for my baby at any price. Even if you gave me a 100 million dollars there really isn’t another car I’d rather have that fits my wants and needs at the moment. If I didn’t have a kid and a car seat then sure, I’d rather be in a GT3 or maybe a T50 or something.

 

[ukcats12]

It’s hard to out BMW BMW. With the Blackwing GM decided to make the anti-M5. It’s everything that the M5 isn’t and found success in a group of buyers that want something very different from an M5. Honestly if Cadillac made something similar to a BMW M3/M5 for a slightly better price most people are going to get the BMW, why get the knockoff if you can get the real thing for just a bit more?

I said this a few posts up from yours, but Cadillac absolutely out-BMW'd BMW. And even by not going down the M5 road and keeping it RWD, it's still faster around a track. From a driving point of view, I think you can make the argument the M5 is the knockoff, although brand perception is hard to shake.

 

[Catified]

Agreed on some of the points. I was looking hard at Hellcat Chargers, but for the life of me I can’t understand why they are going for 90k plus.

A CT5-V BW is already usually going for 100k and it is sharing parts from other GMs (LT4 and same interior as 4 BW). If they added all of that, they are going to ask 125-150k and will sell three of them.

I think a lot of it has to do with the panic buying around getting the last of the powerful v8"s. Although if you ask me I'd say the whole car market is overinflated by 20%. I was one of the first in my area to get the Challenger Hellcat widebody when it came out. I Paid around $75,000 ( $80,000+ with tax). I remember people thinking it was nuts to pay that much for a Dodge. Fast forward several years and these are selling for $95,000+. Insane! The car has been a blast though, loud, rowdy and tremendous fun.
I've been watching this forum with great interest. Was hoping the Blackwing model refresh would bring interior and tech upgrades and yes, switchable AWD.
Pricing that spec of car at $80,000 Base - $90,000 fully loaded would of been a screaming deal that would have brought over many more enthusiasts from other brands. Porsche, Audi and Bmw all have Awd. If you want the Blackwing to be the Halo car that spurs interest in Cadillac"s cars you really have to throw the kitchen sink at the car. Make it such a value proposition that it's impossible to pass over.
As a strategy, think Kia telluride/Palisade. They came out with an suv that was such a good value proposition that I personally saw people walking away from Suv"s that cost $20,000 more. That's how Caddy needs to build its car customer base. I'm stunned at how few people know or have heard anything about the Blackwings. Great cars though.

 

[rubberduck]

Great line btw. Very funny!
It's a personal preference thing. I've had a 700hp+ rear wheel drive car for the last several years.I get the driver involvement and fun aspect of such a car.. 5 - 10 years ago I'd have been similarly horrified at the thought of an all wheel drive performance car, however time has softened those views. A decade on, practicality, comfort, along with instant speed and traction would be my desire. Switchable all wheel drive seems like a good compromise, with. as far as I can tell, no appreciable down side (weight maybe)? I'd say the majority of owners will probably never track the car (myself included) but will daily or street drive it and sometimes in wet weather (depending on what part of the country you"re in). Me, I prefer a Jack of all trades with a touch of supercar thrown in: CT5V Blackwing AWD. Not gonna happen, just my personal wishlist.

I appreciate your viewpoint and not every car is going to resonate with everyone. Not sure how much seat time you have in the 5BW which was really my main point. There is a what don’t you like about your Blackwing thread and I don’t recall anyone ever saying they wished it was AWD.

I’m no expert driver, but I really can’t see how AWD would do anything more for this car except squash the fun. My last two cars were AWD and if I wanted another one I would think German, most likely Audi since I really liked my B8 S4.

 

[ukcats12]

I’m no expert driver, but I really can’t see how AWD would do anything more for this car except squash the fun. My last two cars were AWD and if I wanted another one I would think German, most likely Audi since I really liked my B8 S4.

For the use case of this car, being made as a last hooray type of pure driver's car, it wouldn't add anything other than weight and complexity and GM agreed. But it would make it quicker to 60 so people can brag about the car's spec sheet and give people in winter climates a little more ability to drive in the snow. But you're not going anywhere in even half an inch of snow with performance tires even with AWD, so you'd need to be running all seasons all year or have a dedicated winter set up. So really it wouldn't give you tremendously more benefit than just putting top of the line snow tires on a RWD car.

 

[Catified]

The issue is that Cadillac has tried to do that before, copy BMW at their own game. They even made a large sedan with a hot V twin turbo 4something liter DOHC V8 with AWD, and infused it with GM handling. It was killed almost immediately after it debuted due to out of control costs and low volume sales.

Despite all the BMW hate, BMW is very good at what they do. It’s hard to out BMW BMW. With the Blackwing GM decided to make the anti-M5. It’s everything that the M5 isn’t and found success in a group of buyers that want something very different from an M5. Honestly if Cadillac made something similar to a BMW M3/M5 for a slightly better price most people are going to get the BMW, why get the knockoff if you can get the real thing for just a bit more?

Honesty driving down the highway in the 5BW I feel like I’m in the best daily driver car that fits the large rear facing car seat for my baby at any price. Even if you gave me a 100 million dollars there really isn’t another car I’d rather have that fits my wants and needs at the moment. If I didn’t have a kid and a car seat then sure, I’d rather be in a GT3 or maybe a T50 or something.

Anti M5, Interesting post! You're right! you can't out BMW, BMW. I do think you can match the content and come in at a much better price though, even if it means taking a loss to build the brand and to get the car in the hands of more enthusiasts. M5 specs matched at $20,000 less will get you new customers. Also a lot of people are turned off with BMW's styling. To me the Blackwing is a better looking car. 5BW needs to be such a good deal that you cant pass it up.
Point taken though. Maybe you're right and Cadillac has found it's niche among buyers.

 

[RDATLTE]

We

I think a lot of it has to do with the panic buying around getting the last of the powerful v8"s. Although if you ask me I'd say the whole car market is overinflated by 20%. I was one of the first in my area to get the Challenger Hellcat widebody when it came out. I Paid around $75,000 ( $80,000+ with tax). I remember people thinking it was nuts to pay that much for a Dodge. Fast forward several years and these are selling for $95,000+. Insane! The car has been a blast though, loud, rowdy and tremendous fun.
I've been watching this forum with great interest. Was hoping the Blackwing model refresh would bring interior and tech upgrades and yes, switchable AWD.
Pricing that spec of car at $80,000 Base - $90,000 fully loaded would of been a screaming deal that would have brought over many more enthusiasts from other brands. Porsche, Audi and Bmw all have Awd. If you want the Blackwing to be the Halo car that spurs interest in Cadillac"s cars you really have to throw the kitchen sink at the car. Make it such a value proposition that it's impossible to pass over.
As a strategy, think Kia telluride/Palisade. They came out with an suv that was such a good value proposition that I personally saw people walking away from Suv"s that cost $20,000 more. That's how Caddy needs to build its car customer base. I'm stunned at how few people know or have heard anything about the Blackwings. Great cars though.

Are Tellurides selling at MSRP?

 

[savethemanual]

Are Tellurides selling at MSRP?

They are having a fire sale.

 

[savethemanual]

Pricing that spec of car at $80,000 Base - $90,000 fully loaded would of been a screaming deal that would have brought over many more enthusiasts from other brands. Porsche, Audi and Bmw all have Awd.

I am willing to bet good money the addition of AWD would have made no difference in bringing the Porsche, Audi BMW ppl over.

PS- Porsche is a particularly bad example in this regard. They are primarily RWD especially on their highest tier GT cars. If anything I see porsche appreciating the blackwings because they are RWD.

 

[565565]

I was one of the first in my area to get the Challenger Hellcat widebody when it came out. I Paid around $75,000 ( $80,000+ with tax). I remember people thinking it was nuts to pay that much for a Dodge. Fast forward several years and these are selling for $95,000+.

Yes but remember a big part of it is the record inflation we've had that made money worth alot less. 75K in 2017 when the Hellcat widebody was first released for the 2018 model year is equivalent to 92k today.

 

[Catified]

I said this a few posts up from yours, but Cadillac absolutely out-BMW'd BMW. And even by not going down the M5 road and keeping it RWD, it's still faster around a track. From a driving point of view, I think you can make the argument the M5 is the knockoff, although brand perception is hard to shake.

Think you might be right here. The Blackwings have received unanimous praise for being a drivers car from the automotive press. BMW's not so much anymore. I remember watching a Savagegeese review of the 2021 BMW M5, he called it one of the most soulless vehicles he'd ever driven. Even though the vehicle was extremely capable, it lacked any kind of character.

 

[ukcats12]

Think you might be right here. The Blackwings have received unanimous praise for being a drivers car from the automotive press. BMW's not so much anymore. I remember watching a Savagegeese review of the 2021 BMW M5, he called it one of the most soulless vehicles he'd ever driven. Even though the vehicle was extremely capable, it lacked any kind of character.

Jason Cammisa said the same thing in the CT5 Blackwing's Icons video for Hagerty, and that was even comparing it to the M5 CS. He said the M5 CS is absolutely a precise track weapon (even though it did lose around the track to the BW, a result C&D replicated for their Lightning Lap) it wasn't nearly as much fun as the BW. The ultimate driving machine is now built in Michigan, not Germany.

 

[Catified]

Jason Cammisa said the same thing in the CT5 Blackwing's Icons video for Hagerty, and that was even comparing it to the M5 CS. He said the M5 CS is absolutely a precise track weapon (even though it did lose around the track to the BW, a result C&D replicated for their Lightning Lap) it wasn't nearly as much fun as the BW. The ultimate driving machine is now built in Michigan, not Germany.

I saw that video. I'm sure a lot of BMW owners and car guys did too. As well as all the many other videos online showing Blackwings tearing it up. Why aren't car enthusiasts flocking towards Cadillac in greater numbers? Price, brand loyalty, status?

 

[Jameson's Viggen]

Why aren't car enthusiasts flocking towards Cadillac in greater numbers? Price, brand loyalty, status?

Product vs Perception

I swear it's a Ted talk I give weekly at work lol
.

 

[PL69]

Product vs Perception

I swear it's a Ted talk I give weekly at work lol
.

It's astonishing the perception ppl have. I was the first to scoff at Camaros at the track only to be proven wrong. When ppl see my 4BW fly they all have that puzzled look lol

It takes time to change opinions.

 

[ukcats12]

Why aren't car enthusiasts flocking towards Cadillac in greater numbers? Price, brand loyalty, status?

Like others have said, it's brand perception. I know for me personally, there definitely was a mental hurdle to clear before I sold my C63S to get a Blackwing. Every single person I've told about the move thinks I'm crazy except for one older guy I know who really appreciates American cars.

It's not a hugely accurate representation of car enthusiasts, but when I post on the BMW and AMG pages on Reddit and have CT5 Blackwing as my flair, I get tons of comments along the lines of "Sorry you couldn't afford the M5/E63, but it's cute you have a fast Chevy." Maybe about 10% of comments are positive and really know how good the Blackwings actually are. The general car page over there appreciates the Blackwings much more, but anyone with any sort of brand loyalty to a German brand, or preconceived notion about Cadillac, probably is not going to buy one.

And it doesn't help that M and AMG have basically become status brands instead of enthusiast brands. People drive those cars for the badge now. V or Blackwing just doesn't mean the same thing to your normal person, but even non-car people are relatively aware of what an AMG or M car is. So people buy the M and the AMG, think they're something special, and don't really care about driving dynamics.

Edit: a response I literally just got from r/BMW:

"It’s an American car homie- it’s ugly- cheap and will not get u past 60,000 miles before major problems and 100,000 miles before it’s in the graveyard!
Who cares what the track times are 0-anything when the car doesn’t hold a candle to a German luxury brand?"

So this is the type of attitude you're fighting against when it comes to selling Blackwings.

 

[raptor5244]

Like others have said, it's brand perception. I know for me personally, there definitely was a mental hurdle to clear before I sold my C63S to get a Blackwing. Every single person I've told about the move thinks I'm crazy except for one older guy I know who really appreciates American cars.

It's not a hugely accurate representation of car enthusiasts, but when I post on the BMW and AMG pages on Reddit and have CT5 Blackwing as my flair, I get tons of comments along the lines of "Sorry you couldn't afford the M5/E63, but it's cute you have a fast Chevy." Maybe about 10% of comments are positive and really know how good the Blackwings actually are. The general car page over there appreciates the Blackwings much more, but anyone with any sort of brand loyalty to a German brand, or preconceived notion about Cadillac, probably is not going to buy one.

And it doesn't help that M and AMG have basically become status brands instead of enthusiast brands. People drive those cars for the badge now. V or Blackwing just doesn't mean the same thing to your normal person, but even non-car people are relatively aware of what an AMG or M car is. So people buy the M and the AMG, think they're something special, and don't really care about driving dynamics.

Edit: a response I literally just got from r/BMW:

"It’s an American car homie- it’s ugly- cheap and will not get u past 60,000 miles before major problems and 100,000 miles before it’s in the graveyard!
Who cares what the track times are 0-anything when the car doesn’t hold a candle to a German luxury brand?"

So this is the type of attitude you're fighting against when it comes to selling Blackwings.

I think you summed it up. True car enthusiasts know how good the Blackwings are. The problem is that there are fewer and fewer car enthusiasts nowadays. When you get into this price point for sports sedan many folks are buying the badge for status and don't even know how many cylinders they have under the hood.

Cadillac is still perceived as an old brand, the cars your grandparents drive and I don't see them really trying to attract a new customer base. Remember when they tried to change the brand perception of Oldsmobile? I am no expert in marketing but this is not an easy problem to fix. They would probably be better off creating a GM performance brand/division and stick all their performance cars together and create some car culture again. Corvette, V-series sports sedans, Camaro (RIP), performance trucks, etc. I am not a Dodge fan but they did an unbelievable job marketing the Challenger and Charger over the past decade or so. Cool aggressive styling, tons of colors and trims to chose from, great commercials, etc. Unfortunately the shift to EV is going to destroy about 90% of their customer base.

 

[PL69]

When I joined the BMW forums in my M235i/M2 days there were a lot more driving enthusiasts lurking around, the track threads were populated and I was frequently saw serious track rats in the F8X forums.

Every year this has declined since 2017 and today the track threads go for days without posts, G8X posts about driving dynamics and track day usage are far in between.

I know a lot have abandoned ship when the G8X was announced because of the weight, rear brakes and look. I really wanted to love the G8X but after having 3 I have to admit the F8X serious owners were right, BMWs direction is now aimed towards the crowd who want the image and don't care if the care stops delivering after 7/10s.

The forums are now populated by the social media crowd who care more about there instagram like count than steering feel. They are all drinking the coding coolaid and think they just transformed there Comps into a CS by sending 150$ bucks to some random dude who just uses hacked BMW software to change a line of code. Some select few ultimate luckiest have the chance to buy totally overpriced factory tuned models. I know about I owned a brand new CSL for a few months.

Anyways it's just a shame because BMW have the knowledge and means to do whatever they want but they sadly chose the poseur path. I guess this is where the money is today.