Media dumps

[M2Cto4BW]

Not hardcore? Not on public roads. When I was much younger I was stupid and didn’t think much of the consequences or of the lives of other people. I suppose if one doesn’t have much self-control or thinks every shift has to be at redline to enjoy themselves, a Camaro or 5BW will land them without a drivers license or worse killing somebody.

Woah. Where do you get that from this?
... I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle.

Raptor isn't saying anyone should be driving around like a Fast & Furious chase on the roads, but that ZL1s are way more likely going to track guys & no need for backseats folks, as opposed to 5BWs who are looking for an allrounder and more likely chilling at the country club or BBQ. Obviously he can speak for himself, but in no way does it come across as someone promoting dangerous driving.

 

[rubberduck]

Woah. Where do you get that from this?
... I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle.

Raptor isn't saying anyone should be driving around like a Fast & Furious chase on the roads, but that ZL1s are way more likely going to track guys & no need for backseats folks, as opposed to 5BWs who are looking for an allrounder and more likely chilling at the country club or BBQ. Obviously he can speak for himself, but in no way does it come across as someone promoting dangerous driving.

Woah. Where do you get that from this?
... I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle.

Raptor isn't saying anyone should be driving around like a Fast & Furious chase on the roads, but that ZL1s are way more likely going to track guys & no need for backseats folks, as opposed to 5BWs who are looking for an allrounder and more likely chilling at the country club or BBQ. Obviously he can speak for himself, but in no way does it come across as someone promoting dangerous driving.

I wasn’t trying to reply to anyone in particular. Mainly what I heard was that the V8 cars were too much for the street and too easy to get into “trouble.” I would agree that one can get into “trouble,” which I interpreted to mean spinning out on a public road or mowing down a palm tree in a parking lot. All things I’ve seen or done when I was younger. But, there is something between my ears that can keep me out of trouble.

 

[jbawden]

I own a Tesla as well. The BEVs acceleration is very smooth with no drama so you can't compare it to an ICE based vehicle banging through gears.

My point with BEV acceleration is that from a dig, its quite a bit different than ICE. Notice in my posts I don't say 0-60, its 0-30 or 40 with full torque from 0 is where the crazy happens. A mid 3 second sprint to 60 in a high-torque all wheel drive BEV is a different sensation than a rear drive ICE, so that first 1.5 seconds is disorienting. I find after the initial hit, BEV acceleration falls flat.

 

[Commonman]

... I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle. That description fits me to a tee.

 

[raptor5244]

Woah. Where do you get that from this?
... I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle.

Raptor isn't saying anyone should be driving around like a Fast & Furious chase on the roads, but that ZL1s are way more likely going to track guys & no need for backseats folks, as opposed to 5BWs who are looking for an allrounder and more likely chilling at the country club or BBQ. Obviously he can speak for himself, but in no way does it come across as someone promoting dangerous driving.

This is what I meant. I am in no way promoting or condoning reckless driving on public roads. I was just pointing out that the 5BW and Camaro ZL1 tend to appeal to a different kind of buyer. I don’t think you are going to find as many YouTube videos of 5BW owners doing 60mph-150mph highway pulls against Hellcats, Mustangs, etc. On average, I would expect the 5BW owner is a more mature individual with better self control.

 

[raptor5244]

... I think they appreciate the massive low end torque, short shifting around town and listening to the V8 soundtrack. Maybe open it up on the highway on-ramps once in a while. Only a few will actually hit the track. Typically an older buyer that can afford a $100k+ vehicle. That description fits me to a tee.

No doubt, It is a great driving experience. What I am pointing out, is that you have to be satisfied with that driving experience since the limits of the car are so high that you can’t really experience them on the public roads.

However, if the supercharged LT4 inspires you to drive the car harder you may find it frustrating to keep looking over your shoulder.

The 4BW enables you to push the car a bit harder before risking your license. A Miata lets you push a lot harder. It just depends what you prefer. As I get older, I am finding it is more fun to drive a slow car fast, then drive a fast car slow. I think this is why the Miata formula has lasted so long.

 

[dribs15]

This is what I meant. I am in no way promoting or condoning reckless driving on public roads. I was just pointing out that the 5BW and Camaro ZL1 tend to appeal to a different kind of buyer. I don’t think you are going to find as many YouTube videos of 5BW owners doing 60mph-150mph highway pulls against Hellcats, Mustangs, etc. On average, I would expect the 5BW owner is a more mature individual with better self control.

Usually pretty staid, ... but occasionally...

 

[raptor5244]

My point with BEV acceleration is that from a dig, its quite a bit different than ICE. Notice in my posts I don't say 0-60, its 0-30 or 40 with full torque from 0 is where the crazy happens. A mid 3 second sprint to 60 in a high-torque all wheel drive BEV is a different sensation than a rear drive ICE, so that first 1.5 seconds is disorienting. I find after the initial hit, BEV acceleration falls flat.

I hear you. I actually find it uncomfortable. It is a fun party trick but not something you want to do all the time. From a technology perspective it is impressive how much better the traction control systems work on BEVs which helps them put down those crazy times.

The TC system is able to communicate directly with the EV drive units and modulate the power to eliminate wheel spin much quicker than you can do with ICE based vehicles. I am always shocked at how much instant torque can be delivered in my Tesla without spinning tires. Our BWs need all the tech they can get (launch control) to keep from obliterating the tires. EVs don’t need anything, just plant your foot.

As you mentioned though, with the exception of the Model S Plaid, the torque curve is like a square wave they feel like they fall flat once they reach peak torque, where ICE based torque curves tend to build, rise and fall, with more character and drama.

 

[rubberduck]

No doubt, It is a great driving experience. What I am pointing out, is that you have to be satisfied with that driving experience since the limits of the car are so high that you can’t really experience them on the public roads.

However, if the supercharged LT4 inspires you to drive the car harder you may find it frustrating to keep looking over your shoulder.

The 4BW enables you to push the car a bit harder before risking your license. A Miata lets you push a lot harder. It just depends what you prefer. As I get older, I am finding it is more fun to drive a slow car fast, then drive a fast car slow. I think this is why the Miata formula has lasted so long.

I suppose they could put a mode that programs the accelerator pedal to only give 30% throttle when floored.

I do hear what your saying and having owned three RX-7s and an RX-8 enjoyed the ability of sporty driving on city streets. Those cars could drift pretty easily. Guess my priorities have changed as I got older and no longer find much appeal in that. Perhaps that’s the demographic you’re referring to for the 5BW “common” owner. The thing about the 5BW, and I’ve never driven the Camaro, is that one can tool around in the city and it feels like a luxury sedan. I don’t feel like I’m compromising anything by not unleashing the potential. In fact some days I just enjoy driving slow. As with most things in life mental attitude is the determining factor. If I had this car when I was younger I would be smoking the tires all the time. I know this because I did a lot of that in my 20s.

I have a heavily modded Jeep and can honestly say that I don’t drive over curbs in the city just because I easily could and it would save some time in traffic. This vehicle is still fun to drive in town and I don’t really think about what limits I haven’t pushed that day. If I want to use that vehicle for what it was made for, there are places for that very close by. Off-roading is one thing where one can challenge themselves in a vehicle and get the adrenaline rush without having to drive to some far away location. - I have many places to off-road that are 30-40 minutes from my house.

 

[M2Cto4BW]

This is what I meant. I am in no way promoting or condoning reckless driving on public roads. I was just pointing out that the 5BW and Camaro ZL1 tend to appeal to a different kind of buyer. I don’t think you are going to find as many YouTube videos of 5BW owners doing 60mph-150mph highway pulls against Hellcats, Mustangs, etc. On average, I would expect the 5BW owner is a more mature individual with better self control.

God that's a whole sub genre I've missed out on thankfully. Does the 5BW have any new rivals on the way?
I'm hoping to see some 4BW, RS3, M2 comparisons next year.

But it seems since the BWs have been out a year now, the initial 2 waves of quality vids are done.

 

[Berserker]

I would expect the 5BW owner is a more mature individual with better self control who is afraid of their car.

Fixed your typo.

As for the "maturity" thing, here is a counterpoint:

Are you f'ing kidding me, GM? Red Seatbelts - ONE belt mismatched?!?!

This is what my back seat looks like. When I ordered and paid $400 for red seatbelts, I thought I would get, you know, ALL the seatbelts red. Is this the standard? One mismatched seat belt in the rear center? I think it just looks goofy as hell.

www.cadillacvnet.com

 

[raptor5244]

Fixed your typo.

I would not say "afraid", more like "respect" the power and maintain self-control. I know the 16 year old version of myself would probably be dead if I had a Camaro ZL1 back then. 650+ hp is a lot of power to manage on the street.

I think Jason sums it up perfectly in this segment on the BWs. For an enthusiast trying to decide between the the 4BW and 5BW this may help. If it were me, I would have squeezed the LT1 V8 in the 4BW. That would have been the sweet spot but the LF4 V6 is still pretty good.

 

[NorCal Blackwing]

I get what Cammisa and others are saying, winding out a 200-300hp straight/flat six to redline can be an integral part of the joy of road driving in the canyons... and I'm also sympathetic to the idea that if you put a 667HP small block V8 into a car like this, the power becomes almost the whole point of it ...

However, I always felt the ideal use case for a 5BW is the 'one enthusiast car that can do it all' - i.e. if you live in a relatively mild climate, it can be:

• your comfortable daily,
• your grand tourer,
• your backroad canyon carver

Now, you're still only driving a fraction of the car's (accelerative) potential, but still fun because the chassis is set up right, the V8 makes pleasing noises, the manual is a peach, and the cabin is a nice place to be. So ... all that extra power/tq is going to waste right? Well, the BW is also set up out of the box so you can

• take it to your local road course a few times a year and let it rip!

 

[raptor5244]

I get what Cammisa and others are saying, winding out a 200-300hp straight/flat six to redline can be an integral part of the joy of road driving in the canyons... and I'm also sympathetic to the idea that if you put a 667HP small block V8 into a car like this, the power becomes almost the whole point of it ...

However, I always felt the ideal use case for a 5BW is the 'one enthusiast car that can do it all' - i.e. if you live in a relatively mild climate, it can be:

• your comfortable daily,
• your grand tourer,
• your backroad canyon carver

Now, you're still only driving a fraction of the car's (accelerative) potential, but still fun because the chassis is set up right, the V8 makes pleasing noises, the manual is a peach, and the cabin is a nice place to be. So ... all that extra power/tq is going to waste right? Well, the BW is also set up out of the box so you can

• take it to your local road course a few times a year and let it rip!

Totally agree. It checks all the boxes and they hit a home run with these cars.

If this weren't then end of the road for ICE based Cadillac sports sedans it would have been great to see them release more engine options like they do with the Camaro. I would have liked to see a LT1/LT2 V8 based CT4V and CT5V at 450-500hp and leave the 5BW reserved for the LT4, similar to how they offer the Camaro. They could have targeted some lower price points as well. A CT4V/CT5V with an LT1 V8 and Tremec M6 priced $65-$75k would sell and then leave the 5BW with LT4 at $90-110k.

The Camaro is a fantastic performance car but sales have been terrible mainly because the poor visibility, small trunk opening, useless back seat, etc. The BWs fix all this and make it a much more usable car with very few compromises. Too bad they are on life support already.

 

[Finally-a-V]

@NorCal Blackwing ...... What you said.

 

[668LT4]

I don’t feel like I’m compromising anything by not unleashing the potential. In fact some days I just enjoy driving slow. As with most things in life mental attitude is the determining factor. If I had this car when I was younger I would be smoking the tires all the time. I know this because I did a lot of that in my 20s.

Amen. It's ludicrous to suggest a CT5-V Blackwing will put you in jail and a CT4-V Blackwing won't. Yes, I understand the gearing and lower power on the 4 allows you to "use" more gears and RPM range.

I'm much more into torque than high revving. I owned the CT4-V Blackwing for almost 2000 miles. Its a fun car, but left me wanting more and I don't care to tune. I'm done with turbos, I want the instant acceleration of the LT4. And I should have it in a few weeks

 

[raptor5244]

Amen. It's ludicrous to suggest a CT5-V Blackwing will put you in jail and a CT4-V Blackwing won't. Yes, I understand the gearing and lower power on the 4 allows you to "use" more gears and RPM range.

I'm much more into torque than high revving. I owned the CT4-V Blackwing for almost 2000 miles. Its a fun car, but left me wanting more and I don't care to tune. I'm done with turbos, I want the instant acceleration of the LT4. And I should have it in a few weeks

True, a Miata can get you thrown in jail as well.

It is really just a matter of preference and your driving style. I don't notice any lag from the LF4, it feels like it is naturally aspirated. The LT4 has more torque but keep in mind it is offset by taller gearing and more weight. Where you are going to notice the performance improvement over the 4BW is at the higher speeds. Down low, they are both going to get you to 60mph in the high 3s to low 4s sec range depending on transmission choice and your launch abilities. I used to get 3.8/3.9 on my ZL1 with the A10. But that 60mph-130mph range is where the power difference is most noticeable. It is also the speeds at where you can get into the most trouble.

They are both great. If I could afford it I would probably have one of each.

 

[668LT4]

True, a Miata can get you thrown in jail as well.

It is really just a matter of preference and your driving style. I don't notice any lag from the LF4, it feels like it is naturally aspirated. The LT4 has more torque but keep in mind it is offset by taller gearing and more weight. Where you are going to notice the performance improvement over the 4BW is at the higher speeds. Down low, they are both going to get you to 60mph in the high 3s to low 4s sec range depending on transmission choice and your launch abilities. I used to get 3.8/3.9 on my ZL1 with the A10. But that 60mph-130mph range is where the power difference is most noticeable. It is also the speeds at where you can get into the most trouble.

They are both great. If I could afford it I would probably have one of each.

The 4 is really a nice, nimble car. Lag is very minimal, but there definitely is some. I can't remember if it was Tony who said the 4 is the scalpel and the 5 a sledgehammer. I tried the scalpel. I want the sledgehammer. It is just a totally different character, and all the numbers aside, suits my wishes much more.

 

[rdollie]

I don't know. He sure didn't talk about it very glowingly.

At a couple of points I thought he might need to change his underpants...

I didn't see the review but he made it clear he didn't like the Escalade-V in contrast to his love for the Blackwing.

 

[rubberduck]

At a couple of points I thought he might need to change his underpants...

That was the only thought I was left with after watching the whole video.