CT5-V Tracking 5BW Advice

[MatthewAMEL]

I was kind of leaning towards this option for VIR as (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems like a very open track (no walls) so if something does go wrong, it’s very unlikely to be severe/catastrophic and with most policies having a deductible equal to 10-15% of value (12-18k) and costing another $800-1000 for the event, I can’t see many scenarios where the damage I did outweighs the deductible. They strike me as “total loss” coverages and nothing more.

I'd certainly stop and consider insurance for a track you have never driven before. VIR isn't as inherently technical as something like Road Atlanta, but there are plenty of spots that can be 'problematic'.

Don't forget the other drivers on the track with you who have varying levels of skill and tolerance for risk.

For me, the $$$ enables the peace of mind to let me drive 9/10ths and really get something out of the track time.

I have seen $6k Miatas trashed and $190k GT3's trashed. I have been deposed in two different lawsuits between drivers because I happen to have my PDR running and caught the accident. We aren't used to driving/reacting at these speeds and stuff happens. YYMV.

 

[Head Hunter]

I'd certainly stop and consider insurance for a track you have never driven before. VIR isn't as inherently technical as something like Road Atlanta, but there are plenty of spots that can be 'problematic'.

Don't forget the other drivers on the track with you who have varying levels of skill and tolerance for risk.

For me, the $$$ enables the peace of mind to let me drive 9/10ths and really get something out of the track time.

I have seen $6k Miatas trashed and $190k GT3's trashed. I have been deposed in two different lawsuits between drivers because I happen to have my PDR running and caught the accident. We aren't used to driving/reacting at these speeds and stuff happens. YYMV.

Sound advice, much appreciated

 

[RDATLTE]

I was kind of leaning towards this option for VIR as (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems like a very open track (no walls) so if something does go wrong, it’s very unlikely to be severe/catastrophic and with most policies having a deductible equal to 10-15% of value (12-18k) and costing another $800-1000 for the event, I can’t see many scenarios where the damage I did outweighs the deductible. They strike me as “total loss” coverages and nothing more.

It sounds like you’re only thinking about your car. You / your car could potentially cause damage to another car which you could be responsible for as well.

 

[Head Hunter]

It sounds like you’re only thinking about your car. You / your car could potentially cause damage to another car which you could be responsible for as well.

Good point

 

[poor-sha]

I know VIR looks like it has a lot of run off, but in reality once you leave the pavement you are a passenger until you hit something.

 

[DustinEarnhardt]

I know VIR looks like it has a lot of run off, but in reality once you leave the pavement you are a passenger until you hit something.

+1 on this. Also, contrary to popular belief, tire walls are NOT soft.

 

[sleepys4]

My 5BW is a manual. Do I need to add 2 liters of tranny oil to it (like for a C8 Corvette) for track use? I thought that was only for the AT & not the MT.

Not gonna mess with the alignment -- too much hassle. I'll just deal with understeering on corner entry.

"Brake cooling parts"? What is it that you speak of?

Make sure you take off the inside shields on all 4 corners, the rear has two on each side.

Also be sure to install the rear brake deflectors.

lastly would strongly recommended at least getting an alignment half way from the street setup and track setup at the bare minimum. My first couple track days I ran -1.5 in the front and -1 camber in the rear. It works if you keep a beginners pace.

This past weekend I ran it in full track alignment, actually -2.7 front -1.5 rear. What a massive difference! If you are in there taking the covers off from inside the rotors I would throw some track pads on.

I hope this helps.

Jordan

 

[Carguyshu]

Make sure you take off the inside shields on all 4 corners, the rear has two on each side.

Also be sure to install the rear brake deflectors.

lastly would strongly recommended at least getting an alignment half way from the street setup and track setup at the bare minimum. My first couple track days I ran -1.5 in the front and -1 camber in the rear. It works if you keep a beginners pace.

This past weekend I ran it in full track alignment, actually -2.7 front -1.5 rear. What a massive difference! If you are in there taking the covers off from inside the rotors I would throw some track pads on.

I hope this helps.

Jordan

If you do track pads you need to be aware of how the brake by wire system works first and the comprises associated with putting in a pad that’s different versus what the programming is expecting.

 

[A Blackwing]

If you do track pads you need to be aware of how the brake by wire system works first and the comprises associated with putting in a pad that’s different versus what the programming is expecting.

please elaborate

 

[Carguyshu]

please elaborate

There no physical connection to the brakes and no temp sensors. The only way to know if things are getting too hot is if a message pops up warning you. That message is based on an algorithm that is reliant on the stock pad compound. You won’t ever feel any fade nor fluid boil bc the computer system is compensating automatically. It knows things are hotter so it puts more effort into the pad clamp. You always feel the same thing bc all feedback is simulated with a solenoid. That’s just the safety aspect and before we get into all the programming of the various electromechanical systems like PTM, ABS, etc. that are optimized and programmed based on the stock parts

 

[A Blackwing]

There no physical connection to the brakes and no temp sensors. The only way to know if things are getting too hot is if a message pops up warning you. That message is based on an algorithm that is reliant on the stock pad compound. You won’t ever feel any fade nor fluid boil bc the computer system is compensating automatically. It knows things are hotter so it puts more effort into the pad clamp. You always feel the same thing bc all feedback is simulated with a solenoid. That’s just the safety aspect and before we get into all the programming of the various electromechanical systems like PTM, ABS, etc. that are optimized and programmed based on the stock parts

Makes sense

 

[sleepys4]

If you do track pads you need to be aware of how the brake by wire system works first and the comprises associated with putting in a pad that’s different versus what the programming is expecting.

The pads were fine, but I have been in contact with Girodisc for a new set of rotors.

 

[poor-sha]

There no physical connection to the brakes and no temp sensors. The only way to know if things are getting too hot is if a message pops up warning you. That message is based on an algorithm that is reliant on the stock pad compound. You won’t ever feel any fade nor fluid boil bc the computer system is compensating automatically. It knows things are hotter so it puts more effort into the pad clamp. You always feel the same thing bc all feedback is simulated with a solenoid. That’s just the safety aspect and before we get into all the programming of the various electromechanical systems like PTM, ABS, etc. that are optimized and programmed based on the stock parts

I don’t believe that is correct. The system can detect the compress ability of the fluid and throw a warning as well as changing the brake feel. I had this happen on track at a moderate pace in my C8 with stock fluid and pads.

I would also assume that the system could detect when a given brake pressure isn’t producing the expected rate of wheel deceleration (i.e. pad fade).

 

[Carguyshu]

I don’t believe that is correct. The system can detect the compress ability of the fluid and throw a warning as well as changing the brake feel. I had this happen on track at a moderate pace in my C8 with stock fluid and pads.

I would also assume that the system could detect when a given brake pressure isn’t producing the expected rate of wheel deceleration (i.e. pad fade).

What I said is correct. All pedal feel is simulated with a solenoid. There any many things that feed into the algorithm & there are no temp sensors. Per chief C8 engineer (which uses same system)

What does the Brake Fade Warning System actually measure? Is it the brake fluid or rotor temperature, or does it somehow quantitate actual brake fade?”

From Tadge Juechter via Chevrolet.com:

The Brake Fade Warning Assist System (FWA) was developed to quantify brake fade and provide both an alert to the driver (Level 1) and a measure of protection for the driver and vehicle in the case of more severe fade (Level 2). The electro-hydraulic brake assist system in the C8 is constantly monitoring many data channels and evaluating them to determine if the system is operating properly. In the case of fade warning, it has been developed to monitor the vehicle usage, determine when the brake usage is high enough to have a risk of fade, and react when that fade occurs.

Brake fade is a very complex phenomenon and is not strictly a function of any one input (for example, temperature). Instead, there are many inputs that will affect brake fade, including but not limited to temperature (rotor bulk temperature and pad temperature), brake power, vehicle speed, ambient conditions, pad thickness and pad conditioning (previous burnish, taper wear, previous high temp exposure, etc.). Additionally, we monitor for fluid boil, which can occur with or without brake fade, especially in the case of older brake fluid or the use of aggressive race friction, which has a much higher metallic content and conducts more heat into the brake fluid. Both of these conditions are complex, so any single measurement point is not enough to detect fade reliably. Instead, when aggressive brake usage is detected, we monitor brake pressure, wheel slip, vehicle deceleration and fluid consumption per brake corner. These inputs allow us to detect and appropriately react to fade, without prematurely warning the driver and allowing full use of the vehicle on the track.

Level 1 warning is just that – a warning that the brakes are nearing a concerning level of fade and that the driver should back up their braking points and reduce brake usage to maintain brake temperature and normal vehicle operation. If this is done, the vehicle will exit fade warning and the driver can resume lapping as before. Above is what the driver will see in the Driver Information Center (right side of the cluster).

Level 2 is more serious, as it is linked to fluid boil or substantial brake fade. Level 2 speed limits the vehicle to 62mph, and sets a diagnostic trouble code (DTC). One advantage of our new electro-hydraulic brake assist system is that it can actually continue to supply fluid in the case of a boil condition on track, or isolate a brake corner in the case of a leak, and can therefore provide a significant amount of deceleration, even when the brake fluid has boiled. However, once the fluid has boiled, it is compromised and must be replaced prior to additional brake usage. This is why there is a speed limit and warning that must be cleared after fresh brake fluid has been flushed. An updated version of the Track Preparation Guide was recently released, which provides more guidance on this warning to help ensure our customers are able to continue to enjoy their track day, should they boil their brake fluid.

However, since the FWA system was developed with the production rotors, pads and calipers, we must recommend using the OEM hardware when on track, as we cannot guarantee that the fade warning system will behave as designed if parts are changed.

 

[jodakid69]

Hello Sonny200.

The below information is my track experience with a CT4V-BW MT6 with CF1&2. Obviously, the CT5V-BW will be somewhat different. However, it is heavier, bigger, and had a lot more horsepower and therefore, top-end speed on tracks with long straights.

I have been to 5 track events so far this year and one last year with this vehicle. My experience is that you will need to do a significant amount of maintenance when you track your car. If you have not been to the track with your 5BW, then follow the attached document's guidance.

You MUST do the brake fluid change, I went with Castrol SRF.

You should also do the front suspension track config and a track alignment, otherwise you will literally burn up your front tires. I did not do that and I shredded the front driver side in 3 track days (18) 20-minute sessions. FYI, Cadillac states 100 miles of track use for the OEM tires with the track prep. Therefore, I way over-exceeded the official specs even with the stock configuration.

Below is my suggestion based on my experience to date, information from SpringMountain (been there for 2 classes), and official Cadillac information from the Owners Manual and Service Manuals. However, I am still a new driver, 3 years doing HPDE, and I am not a mechanic.

1. Follow the official break-in process.

2. Oil change and Rear Diff (eLSD) fluid change

3. If you have a Manual Transmission change out the fluid after the break-in

4. Get the brake fluid upgraded to a track version - Castrol, StropTech, Motul

5. Install the optional "track" brake ducks

6. Perform the track alignment process - strut adjustment and track alignment

Tracking your Cadillac is going to be expensive on maintenance!

I am learning that the hard way. It seems that it is going to run at least $1500 per track day when you consider the consumables - tires, brake pads, rotors, and fluid changes. This cost does not include the general wear and beating on the engine or other parts of the vehicle like paint chips, CF components, etc. I am planning on changing out the front tires after 5 track days for the fronts and 10 track days for the rear tires. I am currently getting a vibration when stopping, so I likely wrapped the front rotors doing 135MPH hard stops. Front rotor replacement is likely going to be at least $1800. I am waiting on a quote. I will have a pretty good idea of the track running costs for my CT4V-BW by the end of the year, as I have 13 more track days scheduled for the Cadillac.

When you add in HPDE registration and track insurance costs, I think I might go back to "arrive and drive" with BMW and Mercedes AMG next year, and limit my Blackwing HPDE sessions. If I am right on $1500 consumables/track day, + $500 track insurance/track day, + $350 HPDE registration; then the total track day cost is well above $2000/day. An AMG 2-day session at a top-tier track like COTA, Somona, or Road Atlanta is $5K with instructors. The travel costs to those tracks (airfare, hotel, and car rental) is what tips the scale back to doing a local HPDE event.

 

[Carguyshu]

those number estimates seem awful high, much higher than what i've experienced in my 5. the front rotors, btw, are nowhere near 1800 even on the 5. go to rockauto.com. they have the cheapest oem parts. it is highly unlikely you actually warped a rotor. it is near impossible to get them hot enough to actually warp them. you probably instead just have uneven pad deposits. i've found the front rotors on the 5 should last at least 3 sets of pads. you may have been overdriving the car to cause the tires to go in that amount of time. the ps4s also have a tendency to chunk when overheated, so make sure to keep careful watch on the pressures and to pull off early if need be. i chunked 1 front set in 1 day b/c i made this dumb mistake. otherwise the tires should last a very long time. the 100 miles is more there for optimal conditions. you can get substantially more track miles out of them than that. the manual also states number of hours on the manual trans fluid. don't recall off the top of my head what that is though. you shouldn't have to change the brake fluid out if you're using SRF more than once a year.

 

[poor-sha]

Thank you @Carguyshu for the details from Tadge. I don’t see the disconnect as he said “Instead, when aggressive brake usage is detected, we monitor brake pressure, wheel slip, vehicle deceleration and fluid consumption per brake corner.”

…previously I said

“The system can detect the compress ability of the fluid and throw a warning as well as changing the brake feel. I had this happen on track at a moderate pace in my C8 with stock fluid and pads.

I would also assume that the system could detect when a given brake pressure isn’t producing the expected rate of wheel deceleration (i.e. pad fade).”

My point was that the system isn’t just guessing based on a set algorithm. It may not have temp sensors, but it is collecting data from other sensors to detect fade. Otherwise it would have no way of knowing I even flushed the crappy OEM fluid to SRF.

Tadge’s quote that they recommend only OEM components is not new and it’s always been the case with GM. My favorite example is that was their rationale for never offering the Z07 package with a more street friendly tire.

 

[PL69]

Hello Sonny200.

The below information is my track experience with a CT4V-BW MT6 with CF1&2. Obviously, the CT5V-BW will be somewhat different. However, it is heavier, bigger, and had a lot more horsepower and therefore, top-end speed on tracks with long straights.

I have been to 5 track events so far this year and one last year with this vehicle. My experience is that you will need to do a significant amount of maintenance when you track your car. If you have not been to the track with your 5BW, then follow the attached document's guidance.

You MUST do the brake fluid change, I went with Castrol SRF.

You should also do the front suspension track config and a track alignment, otherwise you will literally burn up your front tires. I did not do that and I shredded the front driver side in 3 track days (18) 20-minute sessions. FYI, Cadillac states 100 miles of track use for the OEM tires with the track prep. Therefore, I way over-exceeded the official specs even with the stock configuration.

Below is my suggestion based on my experience to date, information from SpringMountain (been there for 2 classes), and official Cadillac information from the Owners Manual and Service Manuals. However, I am still a new driver, 3 years doing HPDE, and I am not a mechanic.

1. Follow the official break-in process.

2. Oil change and Rear Diff (eLSD) fluid change

3. If you have a Manual Transmission change out the fluid after the break-in

4. Get the brake fluid upgraded to a track version - Castrol, StropTech, Motul

5. Install the optional "track" brake ducks

6. Perform the track alignment process - strut adjustment and track alignment

Tracking your Cadillac is going to be expensive on maintenance!

I am learning that the hard way. It seems that it is going to run at least $1500 per track day when you consider the consumables - tires, brake pads, rotors, and fluid changes. This cost does not include the general wear and beating on the engine or other parts of the vehicle like paint chips, CF components, etc. I am planning on changing out the front tires after 5 track days for the fronts and 10 track days for the rear tires. I am currently getting a vibration when stopping, so I likely wrapped the front rotors doing 135MPH hard stops. Front rotor replacement is likely going to be at least $1800. I am waiting on a quote. I will have a pretty good idea of the track running costs for my CT4V-BW by the end of the year, as I have 13 more track days scheduled for the Cadillac.

When you add in HPDE registration and track insurance costs, I think I might go back to "arrive and drive" with BMW and Mercedes AMG next year, and limit my Blackwing HPDE sessions. If I am right on $1500 consumables/track day, + $500 track insurance/track day, + $350 HPDE registration; then the total track day cost is well above $2000/day. An AMG 2-day session at a top-tier track like COTA, Somona, or Road Atlanta is $5K with instructors. The travel costs to those tracks (airfare, hotel, and car rental) is what tips the scale back to doing a local HPDE event.

Arrive and drive BMW ? Wuuut ?

The only true arrive and drive cars that I know of are GT4 and GT3 etc. And even then I know of ppl who can go trough a set of tires in a day in these cars. It's a driver thing too

It's not any better with the new M3, trust me, the only thing is maybe the OEM brake fluid witch lasts even with track pads. It's even worse, I need camber plates, I run big 295 square tires setup, front monoballs, Pagid RSL29 pads all around, front brake cooling duct kit and still can't keep up with an equivalent driver in a SS 1LE on top of having absolutely no feeling of what the tires are doing + a front and rear end who feel like they have a mind of there own and speak a totally different language. You feel stuff in the bucket seats but absolutely nothing trough the steering, not very confidence inspiring.

I will be dead honest my 2018 M2 felt a bit more connected and it was very far from being great for giving feedback.

I will add with experience I learned that true endurance components will go a long way in keeping running costs low, endurance pads like Pagid RSL29, Ferodo 3.12 and the new EBC sintered SR11, Hankook RS4, Conti Extreme Force, AD09 are some exemples.

 

[Carguyshu]

Thank you @Carguyshu for the details from Tadge. I don’t see the disconnect as he said “Instead, when aggressive brake usage is detected, we monitor brake pressure, wheel slip, vehicle deceleration and fluid consumption per brake corner.”

…previously I said

“The system can detect the compress ability of the fluid and throw a warning as well as changing the brake feel. I had this happen on track at a moderate pace in my C8 with stock fluid and pads.

I would also assume that the system could detect when a given brake pressure isn’t producing the expected rate of wheel deceleration (i.e. pad fade).”

My point was that the system isn’t just guessing based on a set algorithm. It may not have temp sensors, but it is collecting data from other sensors to detect fade. Otherwise it would have no way of knowing I even flushed the crappy OEM fluid to SRF.

Tadge’s quote that they recommend only OEM components is not new and it’s always been the case with GM. My favorite example is that was their rationale for never offering the Z07 package with a more street friendly tire.

Collecting data from other sensors and feeding that into an algorithm to guess is exactly what it’s doing lol. Pad fade and fluid boil are two completely different problems that are going to be detected differently. Also as soon as you put on different pads what the computer sees as that certain pressure isn’t resulting in proper deceleration that’s going to be based on the characteristics of the stock pad compound and not something else. So the system is not exactly going to function optimally and is going to have compromised whenever you deviate

 

[strohw]

I am learning that the hard way. It seems that it is going to run at least $1500 per track day when you consider the consumables - tires, brake pads, rotors, and fluid changes. This cost does not include the general wear and beating on the engine or other parts of the vehicle like paint chips, CF components, etc. I am planning on changing out the front tires after 5 track days for the fronts and 10 track days for the rear tires. I am currently getting a vibration when stopping, so I likely wrapped the front rotors doing 135MPH hard stops. Front rotor replacement is likely going to be at least $1800. I am waiting on a quote. I will have a pretty good idea of the track running costs for my CT4V-BW by the end of the year, as I have 13 more track days scheduled for the Cadillac.

When you add in HPDE registration and track insurance costs, I think I might go back to "arrive and drive" with BMW and Mercedes AMG next year, and limit my Blackwing HPDE sessions. If I am right on $1500 consumables/track day, + $500 track insurance/track day, + $350 HPDE registration; then the total track day cost is well above $2000/day. An AMG 2-day session at a top-tier track like COTA, Somona, or Road Atlanta is $5K with instructors. The travel costs to those tracks (airfare, hotel, and car rental) is what tips the scale back to doing a local HPDE event.

It's no where near $1500 per track day. Even if you replaced your tires, rotors and brake pads every 5 track days that's only $620 per track day. Front rotors are $1100 shipped and you can change them yourself in less than an hour. You should be running track pads for $500-600 and not $800 OEM pads not don't last. 200TW and OEM tires are $1300 for a set or around $1500 installed. Also like mentioned, it's very unlikely you have warped rotors.