Is it totaled?

[jodakid69]

I saw a video of your event in some posting, but I cannot find it now. The video was far away, it was from the car behind you and it is difficult to see the car placement from the angle of the video. However, it seems that you were on the corner curbing and it ends in dirt or grass kind of like the example below.

The process of the front left tire rolling off the curb, onto the dirt, and then back to the pavement; probably upset the suspension just as you were adding throttle. That is all it takes.

Check out these pictures from turn 7 @ VIR, the start of the "Climbing Esses". I was hitting the apex between 90 and 105 but I was almost coasting with the throttle. Note that as you approach the turn, you do not see the problem ahead:

But once you hit the apex, you see the problem. I circled the dirt depression in red. Note the skid lines and the tires. There is a reason those tires are there and not just railing. Based on the skid marks, it seems that multiple cars follow the path towards the tires.

I think that something similar is what happened in your incident. More of a track issue than bad driving. That is why my instructor @ VIR wanted me to take a slow lap in the first two sessions as he pointed out problem areas such as this one.

 

[Finally-a-V]

I can't even spell insurance, but I don't understand why any insurance company would not total this car. From my unprofessional perspective it's so close, so much damage, so much in parts, I wouldn't even bother to fix it, if I were the insurance company. Wouldn't common sense (oh, there's my answer) say that there will be additional issues? There almost always is, and who's liable post repair if something happens while driving it? I'm not even sure I would want to drive it on the street afterward. I don't know the rental situation, but where's that cost? You won't see this car fixed for 6 months. Best of luck to you, and I hope it works in your favor.

 

[almazing]

I can't even spell insurance, but I don't understand why any insurance company would not total this car. From my unprofessional perspective it's so close, so much damage, so much in parts, I wouldn't even bother to fix it, if I were the insurance company. Wouldn't common sense (oh, there's my answer) say that there will be additional issues? There almost always is, and who's liable post repair if something happens while driving it? I'm not even sure I would want to drive it on the street afterward. I don't know the rental situation, but where's that cost? You won't see this car fixed for 6 months. Best of luck to you, and I hope it works in your favor.

There's a lot to read but I covered exactly why this is happening in the previous pages. The track insurance only operates via agreed value, not ACV. Deductibles are 10 or 15% of that value. So insure the car high, the deductibles stay high, and so does the formula for totaling the vehicle. That is what I'm going through now.

Imagine if you bought a $90k 4BW Track Edition or whatever. You insure it for say, $90k on track, and choose a deductible of 10%. Now in my state, the threshold for a total loss is 80%. So if you crash your car on track, it would need to have an estimate of $72k for damages to be considered totaled, with no dispute. Is a $90k 4 BW worth $72k in the car market? Hell no. ACV for these are around the low-mid 60s, regardless of package. The cost of a front fender between a $60k 4BW and a $90k 4BW is the same, as are all other parts.

Since you paid and possibly owe that $90k, you would want to cover your loan just in case, so you would insure it for what you owe, and possibly a little more if you want to cover taxes paid, registration, etc. If the car CAN be fixed, you'd be on the hook for a $9k deductible bill to the body shop, but the insurance would pay the rest.

But if the body shop isn't aware of the type of insurance you have, how much is covered, and etc., they could just list out every part until it hits the threshold of 80% of ACV, not what you insured it for. Once they hit 80%, the body shop will just say, yea this is done. Let's say they estimate only $60k in damages. So now your mangled $90k 4BW is still under the 80% threshold, and insurance obviously wants to be in the financially advantageous position. This is why I feel that it's a terrible idea to spend more than $70k on a 4BW, but that's a different story altogether.

This is my problem now. Yea, the car is in dismal shape. But mathematically, it can still be 'repaired', based on the amount I have insured. Moral of the story is to always get GAP. Not over-insure your car with track insurance. And choose the lowest deductible available for said track insurance. Track insurance places a huge financial burden on the insuree, and this is by design. It's to prevent people from taking their $15k shitbox, insuring it for $100k, and then purposely crashing it on track to collect the payout. To the insurance company, that $15k shitbox IS worth $100k, and they will process it as such. But they will likely catch it and report the obvious fraud.

 

[almazing]

I saw a video of your event in some posting, but I cannot find it now. The video was far away, it was from the car behind you and it is difficult to see the car placement from the angle of the video. However, it seems that you were on the corner curbing and it ends in dirt or grass kind of like the example below.

The process of the front left tire rolling off the curb, onto the dirt, and then back to the pavement; probably upset the suspension just as you were adding throttle. That is all it takes.

Check out these pictures from turn 7 @ VIR, the start of the "Climbing Esses". I was hitting the apex between 90 and 105 but I was almost coasting with the throttle. Note that as you approach the turn, you do not see the problem ahead:

View attachment 20591

But once you hit the apex, you see the problem. I circled the dirt depression in red. Note the skid lines and the tires. There is a reason those tires are there and not just railing. Based on the skid marks, it seems that multiple cars follow the path towards the tires.

View attachment 20592

I think that something similar is what happened in your incident. More of a track issue than bad driving. That is why my instructor @ VIR wanted me to take a slow lap in the first two sessions as he pointed out problem areas such as this one.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. When I return to track driving, I will be selective in which curbs I will drive on, and do sighting laps at the beginning of every session. I can know a track in and out, but the conditions for each session, or even lap, could be different due to debris at the edges, foreign objects, fluids, car parts, etc., especially with traffic.

 

[jodakid69]

Yes! You are absolutely correct about track conditions, check this out ......

Earlier this month @ NJMP Thunderbolt, I was coming out of the Carousel turn, a similar configuration to your situation.

The setup - First lap, first session of the day. Prior day there was heavy rain. At the drivers meeting it was noted that there was standing water at the end of pit row just at the track entry.

MENTAL NOTE: I Now see that I was probably in the wrong ESC mode for the conditions. I should have been in
TRACK PTM WET.

I was being cautious during the first lap and was definitely running slower than normal. This was my 4th track day at the NJMP Thunderbolt track within the last year.

I went around 3/4 of the first lap and the track seemed dry - standing yellow flag displayed at the station coming onto the Carousel turn. Other than the pit entrance to the track, the track seemed dry until you hit the exit of the Carousel turn. Then you saw a band of wet on the track.

I now see on video that there was enough water to have a slight pool of water where I have drawn the circle. Also note the right rear tire of the car in front of me kicked up water, but not the left side tire. I still had a fair amount of left wheel input, slight main throttle, and I am going slow - 40MPH, compared to my usual run through the turn.

Passing the wet area - I was thinking a wet spot, no standing water, no issue. I was unwinding the wheel and adding throttle (3/4), speed is coming up, all looks fine.

Out of the Wet Area: Sliding Rear! - What the heck just happend ???

The car significantly turned to the left, I give right wheel input - the steering input went from -24 to +26, note the sliding traction control icon, and I circled the tire marks from what might have been a previous car that went off.
Check out the differences in the friction circle between pictures. I am guessing that the right rear tire got wet and the left rear tire was just moist. This situation under throttle induced a left spin - all of a sudden I am drifting and running out of track on the left side!

The right wheel input, coming off throttle, plus the traction control system saved my butt. I also did not have a wall right there on the left side to worry about.

Later that Afternoon: Note the differences at the same track location in the PM after the track was completely dry.
I am running 10MPH faster, full throttle, the steering angle is much greater at the corner exit, and holding.

 

[Carguyshu]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. When I return to track driving, I will be selective in which curbs I will drive on, and do sighting laps at the beginning of every session. I can know a track in and out, but the conditions for each session, or even lap, could be different due to debris at the edges, foreign objects, fluids, car parts, etc., especially with traffic.

event before your accident at heartland there was a turtle slowly making his way across the track for 2 sessions right where you come over alpha

 

[almazing]

Got the news over the weekend. It is officially totaled. It has been quite a mentally stressful month for me since I filed the claim early July. I'm glad Hagerty/RLI came through, and their agent was a pleasure to work with. I've learned a lot of lessons from this crash.

If I could go back, I would choose 10% deductible and pay the extra $40 for the premium. 5% isn't a lot, but an extra 5% of 10s of thousands is not a small number. Had the vehicle been repaired, it would have cost me over $10k to the body shop. With a 10% deductible, it would be well under $10k. Don't always bank on a track incident resulting in a total loss either. Always choose the lowest deductible.

Practice patience with the throttle on tighter corner exits. The 4BW makes you feel like a superhero, but it's a 2 ton car and as good as it is, it can't break the rules of physics.

No more 'last lap' mentality. The moment I feel that the tires aren't gripping as good as they should, I will back off instead of pushing harder. Doing a 'last' anything and pushing it often results in a negative outcome. As an avid mountain biker, I've had many a crash during a 'last session' in a bike park or downhill trail. It's the same with track days. I should have known better.

Unfortunately, I can't find another 4BW without a sunroof in the options I want, at the price range I am willing to pay. I had just one I was eyeing, but it sold not long ago. So I'm looking at $80k+ 4BWs. The 4BW is a great car for $70k and under. A damn steal. But get higher than that and the value proposition drops quite sharply. And having first hand experience of just how inexpensive GM sells parts(through the insurance estimates), actually totaling a $92k special edition 4BW whether on track or a public street accident is going to be very, very difficult mathematically. The parts on a $60k and $90k 4BW cost the same. a $50k repair on a $60k 4BW will total it, but on a $90k 4BW, it mathematically is repairable according to the insurance company. Keep that in mind for anyone wanting to drop that much money on a 4BW.

In addition to not being able to find another 4BW similar to the spec I had, there will always be a lingering feeling that it'll bite me again. I did crash in that same car, so mentally, it's hard to shake off the stigma. It's not the car's fault. The fault is all mine, but now, I have a mental association with crashing with the 4BW.

So I decided to order a new Porsche Cayman S instead. If I'm going to drop over $80k on a car to replace the 4BW, it may as well be a lightweight sportscar.

 

[dribs15]

Got the news over the weekend. It is officially totaled. It has been quite a mentally stressful month for me since I filed the claim early July. I'm glad Hagerty/RLI came through, and their agent was a pleasure to work with. I've learned a lot of lessons from this crash.

If I could go back, I would choose 10% deductible and pay the extra $40 for the premium. 5% isn't a lot, but an extra 5% of 10s of thousands is not a small number. Had the vehicle been repaired, it would have cost me over $10k to the body shop. With a 10% deductible, it would be well under $10k. Don't always bank on a track incident resulting in a total loss either. Always choose the lowest deductible.

Practice patience with the throttle on tighter corner exits. The 4BW makes you feel like a superhero, but it's a 2 ton car and as good as it is, it can't break the rules of physics.

No more 'last lap' mentality. The moment I feel that the tires aren't gripping as good as they should, I will back off instead of pushing harder. Doing a 'last' anything and pushing it often results in a negative outcome. As an avid mountain biker, I've had many a crash during a 'last session' in a bike park or downhill trail. It's the same with track days. I should have known better.

Unfortunately, I can't find another 4BW without a sunroof in the options I want, at the price range I am willing to pay. I had just one I was eyeing, but it sold not long ago. So I'm looking at $80k+ 4BWs. The 4BW is a great car for $70k and under. A damn steal. But get higher than that and the value proposition drops quite sharply. And having first hand experience of just how inexpensive GM sells parts(through the insurance estimates), actually totaling a $92k special edition 4BW whether on track or a public street accident is going to be very, very difficult mathematically. The parts on a $60k and $90k 4BW cost the same. a $50k repair on a $60k 4BW will total it, but on a $90k 4BW, it mathematically is repairable according to the insurance company. Keep that in mind for anyone wanting to drop that much money on a 4BW.

In addition to not being able to find another 4BW similar to the spec I had, there will always be a lingering feeling that it'll bite me again. I did crash in that same car, so mentally, it's hard to shake off the stigma. It's not the car's fault. The fault is all mine, but now, I have a mental association with crashing with the 4BW.

So I decided to order a new Porsche Cayman S instead. If I'm going to drop over $80k on a car to replace the 4BW, it may as well be a lightweight sportscar.

Great to hear!
... but if you get a 5 then it won't be the same as the car you had a bad experience in and you can spend over 80k without feeling guilty buying another sportscar (just not quite as light)

 

[PL69]

Got the news over the weekend. It is officially totaled. It has been quite a mentally stressful month for me since I filed the claim early July. I'm glad Hagerty/RLI came through, and their agent was a pleasure to work with. I've learned a lot of lessons from this crash.

If I could go back, I would choose 10% deductible and pay the extra $40 for the premium. 5% isn't a lot, but an extra 5% of 10s of thousands is not a small number. Had the vehicle been repaired, it would have cost me over $10k to the body shop. With a 10% deductible, it would be well under $10k. Don't always bank on a track incident resulting in a total loss either. Always choose the lowest deductible.

Practice patience with the throttle on tighter corner exits. The 4BW makes you feel like a superhero, but it's a 2 ton car and as good as it is, it can't break the rules of physics.

No more 'last lap' mentality. The moment I feel that the tires aren't gripping as good as they should, I will back off instead of pushing harder. Doing a 'last' anything and pushing it often results in a negative outcome. As an avid mountain biker, I've had many a crash during a 'last session' in a bike park or downhill trail. It's the same with track days. I should have known better.

Unfortunately, I can't find another 4BW without a sunroof in the options I want, at the price range I am willing to pay. I had just one I was eyeing, but it sold not long ago. So I'm looking at $80k+ 4BWs. The 4BW is a great car for $70k and under. A damn steal. But get higher than that and the value proposition drops quite sharply. And having first hand experience of just how inexpensive GM sells parts(through the insurance estimates), actually totaling a $92k special edition 4BW whether on track or a public street accident is going to be very, very difficult mathematically. The parts on a $60k and $90k 4BW cost the same. a $50k repair on a $60k 4BW will total it, but on a $90k 4BW, it mathematically is repairable according to the insurance company. Keep that in mind for anyone wanting to drop that much money on a 4BW.

In addition to not being able to find another 4BW similar to the spec I had, there will always be a lingering feeling that it'll bite me again. I did crash in that same car, so mentally, it's hard to shake off the stigma. It's not the car's fault. The fault is all mine, but now, I have a mental association with crashing with the 4BW.

So I decided to order a new Porsche Cayman S instead. If I'm going to drop over $80k on a car to replace the 4BW, it may as well be a lightweight sportscar.

Totally understand the part of not going with another 4BW and I can confirm having owned a 2018 718 GTS you will love it !!

I did two intense track days in the 4BW last week and I don't think the PTM sport would of saved it, I am starting to trust the car more and more, I now do laps in Race 1 and installed Azenis RT660. This car has some magical turn in capability but the track needs to be clean to take advantage of it. I talked to a few guys in Camaros and it's the same, very fast cars but you have to respect the laws of physics. You will feel like you can defy them in the 718 hehe but it's just the lower weight having its effect!

 

[almazing]

Great to hear!
... but if you get a 5 then it won't be the same as the car you had a bad experience in and you can spend over 80k without feeling guilty buying another sportscar (just not quite as light)

The 5 is heavier and 200 more horsepower! I think I'd get in a lot more trouble with the 5. That being said, I think getting a new Base or S Cayman/Boxster S for MSRP is easier than scoring a 5 in a manual. I really don't want to order one, and I don't trust Cadillac dealers to give me an allocation when I know that they pass up customer allocations for their stupid dealer builds.

Totally understand the part of not going with another 4BW and I can confirm having owned a 2018 718 GTS you will love it !!

I did two intense track days in the 4BW last week and I don't think the PTM sport would of saved it, I am starting to trust the car more and more, I now do laps in Race 1 and installed Azenis RT660. This car has some magical turn in capability but the track needs to be clean to take advantage of it. I talked to a few guys in Camaros and it's the same, very fast cars but you have to respect the laws of physics. You will feel like you can defy them in the 718 hehe but it's just the lower weight having its effect!

Sounds like you're having a blast on track, as you should! I think Race 1 is the fastest, as throttle cut TC still does interfere from a performance standpoint. Race 2 leaves you to your own devices for the most part. The weight of the 4BW and Camaros warm tires up pretty quickly, but they also get greasy quickly. The Alpha chassis cars hide their weight quite well, so it's really easy to get in over your head. Once the tires aren't gripping any more, it's time to back off because that's when the weight of these cars catch up to you suddenly.

With a lighter car, the weight does catch up to it when tires get greasy, but it's not quite as abrupt as something that weights 700-800 lbs more. I will track the 718 next year. It'll be interesting shaking off the cobwebs, as I'm not tracking for the rest of this season. But I am on the VR racing sim so I don't get TOO rusty.

 

[PL69]

The 5 is heavier and 200 more horsepower! I think I'd get in a lot more trouble with the 5. That being said, I think getting a new Base or S Cayman/Boxster S for MSRP is easier than scoring a 5 in a manual. I really don't want to order one, and I don't trust Cadillac dealers to give me an allocation when I know that they pass up customer allocations for their stupid dealer builds.



Sounds like you're having a blast on track, as you should! I think Race 1 is the fastest, as throttle cut TC still does interfere from a performance standpoint. Race 2 leaves you to your own devices for the most part. The weight of the 4BW and Camaros warm tires up pretty quickly, but they also get greasy quickly. The Alpha chassis cars hide their weight quite well, so it's really easy to get in over your head. Once the tires aren't gripping any more, it's time to back off because that's when the weight of these cars catch up to you suddenly.

With a lighter car, the weight does catch up to it when tires get greasy, but it's not quite as abrupt as something that weights 700-800 lbs more. I will track the 718 next year. It'll be interesting shaking off the cobwebs, as I'm not tracking for the rest of this season. But I am on the VR racing sim so I don't get TOO rusty.

Agree with what you said, this is also inline with comment from my friend who tracks his ZL1 1LE, once those super sticky Supercar3R's are done it's ice skating time.

I want to eventually come back to the Cayman/718 platform.. altrough I still have to give the edge to the Blackwings suspension. It's just out of this world impressive.

 

[shbox]

Glad you got the result you wanted from the insurance. I sure thought with all the 4BWs out there now, you could find one to your liking, though.

 

[almazing]

Glad you got the result you wanted from the insurance. I sure thought with all the 4BWs out there now, you could find one to your liking, though.

There aren't any 4BWs left that meet both my options requirement and price range. I have looked. All the good stuff has been sold. I also don't wanna order because I refuse to be in the goat rodeo again. Theoretically speaking(if I had the money), I can probably order 3 Porsches back to back to back and have each of them delivered to me even before GM decides to build my car. And order another 5 Porsches back to back to back and have them delivered to me before GM loads my custom 4BW on the train to the dealer. Porsche has German engineered their ordering and delivery process in such a way that when they give you a build and delivery date, it will be built and then delivered in the time frame given 90% of the time, while being able to track it every step of the way with an app. I know 2024 4BWs will replenish dealer stock, but it'll be another year before there's enough different builds and price ranges to choose from. I'm not really willing to wait that long.

 

[jodakid69]

Got the news over the weekend. It is officially totaled. It has been quite a mentally stressful month for me since I filed the claim early July. I'm glad Hagerty/RLI came through, and their agent was a pleasure to work with. I've learned a lot of lessons from this crash.

If I could go back, I would choose 10% deductible and pay the extra $40 for the premium. 5% isn't a lot, but an extra 5% of 10s of thousands is not a small number. Had the vehicle been repaired, it would have cost me over $10k to the body shop. With a 10% deductible, it would be well under $10k. Don't always bank on a track incident resulting in a total loss either. Always choose the lowest deductible.

Practice patience with the throttle on tighter corner exits. The 4BW makes you feel like a superhero, but it's a 2 ton car and as good as it is, it can't break the rules of physics.

No more 'last lap' mentality. The moment I feel that the tires aren't gripping as good as they should, I will back off instead of pushing harder. Doing a 'last' anything and pushing it often results in a negative outcome. As an avid mountain biker, I've had many a crash during a 'last session' in a bike park or downhill trail. It's the same with track days. I should have known better.

Unfortunately, I can't find another 4BW without a sunroof in the options I want, at the price range I am willing to pay. I had just one I was eyeing, but it sold not long ago. So I'm looking at $80k+ 4BWs. The 4BW is a great car for $70k and under. A damn steal. But get higher than that and the value proposition drops quite sharply. And having first hand experience of just how inexpensive GM sells parts(through the insurance estimates), actually totaling a $92k special edition 4BW whether on track or a public street accident is going to be very, very difficult mathematically. The parts on a $60k and $90k 4BW cost the same. a $50k repair on a $60k 4BW will total it, but on a $90k 4BW, it mathematically is repairable according to the insurance company. Keep that in mind for anyone wanting to drop that much money on a 4BW.

In addition to not being able to find another 4BW similar to the spec I had, there will always be a lingering feeling that it'll bite me again. I did crash in that same car, so mentally, it's hard to shake off the stigma. It's not the car's fault. The fault is all mine, but now, I have a mental association with crashing with the 4BW.

So I decided to order a new Porsche Cayman S instead. If I'm going to drop over $80k on a car to replace the 4BW, it may as well be a lightweight sportscar.

Congrats on winning the battle at the end, even though your "win" is still costing you a bundle.

Good choice on moving up to Porsche if you can make the price jump. You are right about the $70K price point for the CT4V-BW being the sweet spot.

For me, I am going to try to wait it out another 2 years and then go for a 2026MY M2 maxed out. I think the M2 platform will be a much better track car than the CT4V-BW. Again, to level set I have completed 9 tack days YTD and I have 13 more days scheduled for the car between now and the beginning of November. The Cadillac is a great street car that you can take to the track a few times a year. But when you get to 10+ days a year, the maintenance cost for the Cadillac appears to be significantly higher than the M2.

 

[Matt27]

Congrats on winning the battle at the end, even though your "win" is still costing you a bundle.

Good choice on moving up to Porsche if you can make the price jump. You are right about the $70K price point for the CT4V-BW being the sweet spot.

For me, I am going to try to wait it out another 2 years and then go for a 2026MY M2 maxed out. I think the M2 platform will be a much better track car than the CT4V-BW. Again, to level set I have completed 9 tack days YTD and I have 13 more days scheduled for the car between now and the beginning of November. The Cadillac is a great street car that you can take to the track a few times a year. But when you get to 10+ days a year, the maintenance cost for the Cadillac appears to be significantly higher than the M2.

The same M2 without adjustable front camber and dinky single piston floating rear calipers? I guess there's a chance they make the inevitable Competition/CS model more capable (though note, the M4 CSL still has the same cheap setup) but as it sits I don't think it's close. It even weighs about the same as a 4BW.

Plus, that hotted up version of the M2 will be $100k+.

It's almost impossible to get anything 3700+ lbs to be a full on track rat. There's a reason people run gutted Miatas and 86s. Way cheaper. It's just physics.

Even a ZLE, while immensely capable, has heinous consumables costs too.

 

[minn19]

There aren't any 4BWs left that meet both my options requirement and price range. I have looked. All the good stuff has been sold. I also don't wanna order because I refuse to be in the goat rodeo again. Theoretically speaking(if I had the money), I can probably order 3 Porsches back to back to back and have each of them delivered to me even before GM decides to build my car. And order another 5 Porsches back to back to back and have them delivered to me before GM loads my custom 4BW on the train to the dealer. Porsche has German engineered their ordering and delivery process in such a way that when they give you a build and delivery date, it will be built and then delivered in the time frame given 90% of the time, while being able to track it every step of the way with an app. I know 2024 4BWs will replenish dealer stock, but it'll be another year before there's enough different builds and price ranges to choose from. I'm not really willing to wait that long.

Well sort of, I waited 19 months for my 911 and got lucky it wasn’t longer. Go and check out Rennlist for the latest. They have the same issues as everyone else whether it is due to supply chain effecting what options can be ordered at times and what can’t. This can and has lead to significant wait times. Even kind of odd things like Bose stereos weren’t able to be optioned for months. Then you get to shipping, many have waited months at Emden and then sometimes when they get here, they wait at the US port to get on a truck.

Not trying to discourage you, just trying to give you a realistic heads up on what could happen. It also could go very smooth and none of this will apply to you. Allocations are at least easy to get on an S as everyone wants the GTS 4.0s

They are awesome cars and definitely worth the experience, but get ready to forget the word “value” as the P car tax on just about everything is 100% real!

Last, if you can swing it, pick it up at one of the PEC locations in LA or Atlanta. I did the Atlanta location with my 911 and it was an amazing day, well worth the cost!

 

[almazing]

Congrats on winning the battle at the end, even though your "win" is still costing you a bundle.

Good choice on moving up to Porsche if you can make the price jump. You are right about the $70K price point for the CT4V-BW being the sweet spot.

For me, I am going to try to wait it out another 2 years and then go for a 2026MY M2 maxed out. I think the M2 platform will be a much better track car than the CT4V-BW. Again, to level set I have completed 9 tack days YTD and I have 13 more days scheduled for the car between now and the beginning of November. The Cadillac is a great street car that you can take to the track a few times a year. But when you get to 10+ days a year, the maintenance cost for the Cadillac appears to be significantly higher than the M2.

Thanks. But I think the 4BW is the better track car than the new M2 by a long shot. The 4BW is the best track capable and track ready car even at that weight, at any price. I do my own track prep maintenance, so that 'extra' cost isn't something I pay. And to be fair, if you track ANY car 10+ days a year, it's going to be expensive regardless of whether it's a GR86 or a GT3 RS. Especially if you pay someone else to do basic maintenance for you. Having seen first hand just how inexpensive Cadillac parts really are via insurance estimates, the Cadillac is and will be the cheaper car to run as a daily and track car than a BMW.

The grass is not greener on the other side. If you want an 'inexpensive' track car, get something that weighs 3000lbs or less. Weight eats consumables at a very rapid rate. Going from a 2 ton car to another 2 ton car hoping you'll save money on maintenance from a track perspective is futile, IMO.

The same M2 without adjustable front camber and dinky single piston floating rear calipers? I guess there's a chance they make the inevitable Competition/CS model more capable (though note, the M4 CSL still has the same cheap setup) but as it sits I don't think it's close. It even weighs about the same as a 4BW.

Plus, that hotted up version of the M2 will be $100k+.

It's almost impossible to get anything 3700+ lbs to be a full on track rat. There's a reason people run gutted Miatas and 86s. Way cheaper. It's just physics.

Even a ZLE, while immensely capable, has heinous consumables costs too.

BMW makes very fast cars, but very fast doesn't always translate to track friendly. Single piston rear calipers with 19/20 inch wheels and cross-drilled rotors doesn't strike me as track ready. The don't even come with forged wheels anymore. I think the 4BW will have more track staying power than any modern M car.

Well sort of, I waited 19 months for my 911 and got lucky it wasn’t longer. Go and check out Rennlist for the latest. They have the same issues as everyone else whether it is due to supply chain effecting what options can be ordered at times and what can’t. This can and has lead to significant wait times. Even kind of odd things like Bose stereos weren’t able to be optioned for months. Then you get to shipping, many have waited months at Emden and then sometimes when they get here, they wait at the US port to get on a truck.

Not trying to discourage you, just trying to give you a realistic heads up on what could happen. It also could go very smooth and none of this will apply to you. Allocations are at least easy to get on an S as everyone wants the GTS 4.0s

They are awesome cars and definitely worth the experience, but get ready to forget the word “value” as the P car tax on just about everything is 100% real!

Last, if you can swing it, pick it up at one of the PEC locations in LA or Atlanta. I did the Atlanta location with my 911 and it was an amazing day, well worth the cost!

I read about the specific options that could lead to delays. So I did not opt for the Bose or PDLS. My Cayman S is specced with Sport PASM, Sport Chrono, and PTV, and a few minor options like 2-way sport plus seats, GT steering wheel, and the Sport Design Package for the 3rd radiator. Nothing extravagant, and very simple because I wanted an unadulterated Porsche experience. I've been lurking in the 718 forum and Rennlist and there hasn't really been any delays this year as far as the base/S 718s go. Most people that have ordered a base or S 718 has gotten theirs in the time frame promised by the dealer. I'm sure the 911 is a different story and uncharted waters for me to be able to speak on accurately.

Was your build affected by the ship that sank with a whole bunch of Porsches in it last year? I remember reading that Porsche built all new cars to replace those that were lost at sea and were prioritized over other orders.

 

[DCV]

I traded my 2019 911 C4S for the 4 Blackwing. It was loaded up with RAS, PDCC, SPASM and more. I didn’t want to keep paying to keep the service up every three or 4 years. Year 6 service would require a lithium ion battery and the PDCC reservoir changed, AWD controller changed and more. That service would have been over 5K. So I wanted something that cost less to keep up. I had a headlight get busted out and that plus the install and coding was 5.5K…..I don’t miss it. I think it’s still at Lindsay Cadillac if anyone is looking for one.

 

[PL69]

Congrats on winning the battle at the end, even though your "win" is still costing you a bundle.

Good choice on moving up to Porsche if you can make the price jump. You are right about the $70K price point for the CT4V-BW being the sweet spot.

For me, I am going to try to wait it out another 2 years and then go for a 2026MY M2 maxed out. I think the M2 platform will be a much better track car than the CT4V-BW. Again, to level set I have completed 9 tack days YTD and I have 13 more days scheduled for the car between now and the beginning of November. The Cadillac is a great street car that you can take to the track a few times a year. But when you get to 10+ days a year, the maintenance cost for the Cadillac appears to be significantly higher than the M2.

Trust me after 3 G8X cars I confirm they are even worse in the track readyness aspect.

The other guys told the truth, if you want reasonable consommables you need 3000lbs or less or if you hover in the 3500-3700 not too much power, like they said it's just physics. My friend in is ZL1 1LE hangs with supercars and GT3s and it's a set of tires every 3-4 days. He just copes with it because he wants to be fast. My front RT660 on the 4BW will be pretty much dead after 3 track days too.

I'd say the fastest car with the most reasonable consumables is the GT4. I owned a 2018 718 GTS and that thing was a smidge faster than the 4BW with 110hp less on stock brakes/pads that just wouldn't wear compared to my past BMWs.

There's a reason the tracks aren't populated with a lot of cars over 3500lbs.