Is it totaled?

[almazing]

Update:

The body shop called last Wednesday and told me that the front and rear frame rails were bent, among other major damages and they were going to push for a total loss. However, I got the body shop estimate. $62k. Not enough to hit the 80% total loss threshold for my state.

I've called the insurance agent about it, and while he didn't seem to favor either a total loss or getting it repaired, I stated my case that since major structural components were damaged, and I still do intent to track the car if it does get repaired, that I wouldn't feel comfortable with it for my use case. In addition, I pleaded that there could be even more hidden damages when they do start working on the car that could raise the supplemental costs of this even further. I also stated that given the amount of damage and parts required that this could take literal months to repair.

So it hangs in the balance. If it were just cosmetic damages, then I would have been fine with repairs. Now they need to tear the entire car apart to replace the front frame rails and put everything back together.

The saga continues....

 

[dribs15]

Update:

The body shop called last Wednesday and told me that the front and rear frame rails were bent, among other major damages and they were going to push for a total loss. However, I got the body shop estimate. $62k. Not enough to hit the 80% total loss threshold for my state.

I've called the insurance agent about it, and while he didn't seem to favor either a total loss or getting it repaired, I stated my case that since major structural components were damaged, and I still do intent to track the car if it does get repaired, that I wouldn't feel comfortable with it for my use case. In addition, I pleaded that there could be even more hidden damages when they do start working on the car that could raise the supplemental costs of this even further. I also stated that given the amount of damage and parts required that this could take literal months to repair.

So it hangs in the balance. If it were just cosmetic damages, then I would have been fine with repairs. Now they need to tear the entire car apart to replace the front frame rails and put everything back together.

The saga continues....

Bent rails = done

 

[FLYARMY]

I am gonna bet that they will total loss the car and avoid any further issues that could arise. The insurance companies have more money than the banks and it will not hurt them financially to total the car. Years ago it was a battle to get a car totalled. Cars are so complicated today that they total cars more often than not and sell the carcass at auction to grab back some money. My family has two shops and sometimes we make a fortune on just the storage charges from the cars sitting in our lots and not even touching them for repairs.

 

[almazing]

Bent rails = done

You'd think so, practically speaking. But on paper, it still doesn't hit the 80% threshold. The insurance company could still want to get it fixed. Which is why I've pleaded my case to my adjuster. Hopefully, he sees the reasoning behind why.

I am gonna bet that they will total loss the car and avoid any further issues that could arise. The insurance companies have more money than the banks and it will not hurt them financially to total the car. Years ago it was a battle to get a car totalled. Cars are so complicated today that they total cars more often than not and sell the carcass at auction to grab back some money. My family has two shops and sometimes we make a fortune on just the storage charges from the cars sitting in our lots and not even touching them for repairs.

I hope you're right. How much do you think a 1900 mile CT4V BW that is mechanically fine with a great interior(minus headliner) but with a severely damaged front end would fetch at auction? If it's $35k or more(in my case), mathematically speaking, it would be best to total it since they would be able to recoup some of their losses if they give me a payout.

 

[LF4472]

I also stated that given the amount of damage and parts required that this could take literal months to repair.

Months might be optimisic depending on parts availability.

Isn't there another thread with a damaged car that has been waiting for parts?

 

[jodakid69]

It seems that Blackwings with major impacts are selling for at auction at about 30% to 35% of MSRP.

If the repair bill is even $45K, plus $25K for the auction purchase it equals $70K. But the market for an almost new vehicle is in that range. Why would someone pay that much for a crashed car that needs lots of work? What I am missing? When buyers are willing to pay high salvage prices, it is more likely that insurance companies will total the car.

 

[almazing]

It seems that Blackwings with major impacts are selling for at auction at about 30% to 35% of MSRP.

View attachment 20563

If the repair bill is even $45K, plus $25K for the auction purchase it equals $70K. But the market for almost new is in that range. Why would some out pay that much for a crashed car that needs lots of work? What I am missing? When buyers are willing to pay high salvage prices, it is more likely that insurance companies will total the car.

I’m crossing my fingers that the insurance company runs their numbers this way.

 

[jodakid69]

I’m crossing my fingers that the insurance company runs their numbers this way.

The pictures do not make it look like a $60K repair job. I would expect, based on other auctions, that your car goes for $30K or more.

 

[Finally-a-V]

@Rob ....looks like another VIN for you

 

[almazing]

The pictures do not make it look like a $60K repair job. I would expect, based on other auctions, that your car goes for $30K or more.

I went through the estimate in great detail and searched for nearly every single part. The body shop was very thorough. As thorough as they can be without tearing the car apart even further. Gist of it is that the engine, transmission, and front subframe needs to be removed to replace the front impact side rails. The engine mounts also need replacing so I'm going to make the assumption here that the body shop is very likely to find a lot more damage in the engine bay, and possibly firewall, transmission tunnel, etc. The rear unibody that the trunk lid attaches to is damaged. The passenger side rear quarter panel will need to be cut to see if any further damage is underneath. In addition, the radiator, AC condenser, transmission oil cooler, intercooler radiator, as well as the ducts and plastic surrounding them is damaged and needs replacement. The rear passenger side suspension was also damaged and parts there need replacing. The steering rack and column has been damaged, so the interior needs a teardown. So there is quite a lot underneath. The 2 ton car with me in it did hit the immovable concrete wall at 40-50 MPH, so I expect there to be more than meets the eye.

I sent my claims agent an email informing him that I did thoroughly check the claim, googled part numbers, and spoke with the body shop about the severity of the damage. I pleaded for him to potentially consider it a total loss due to the amount of damage, work needed, amount of time needed, newly discovered damage, and potential parts acquisition issues.

While on paper, it doesn't reach the state law threshold of 80% (it's at 72%), removal of major components could show even further damage than anticipated, and that damage easily crest the 80% threshold during the repairs. In addition, it will take 177.6 man hours, but the agent told me that each 'full day' that he uses as reference is 5.5 hours. So it's looking like a 32 day repair, assuming all the parts come in on time, there are no other damages, and they work on it every day for 6 1/2 weeks. But we all know there will be delays with parts, and that the body shop is busy with other work. I also mentioned that since there is known frame damage that needs to be cut and rewelded, that I'm not confident that the car would be brought back to pre-loss condition. Additionally, it's a high tech car with a lot of electronics and that complete engine removal could mean that these electronics could cause issues in the future due to potential improper assembly. I don't want it to be a safety issue, and I doubt that the body shop will be willing to take on that liability. The body shop has a warranty on bodywork(for as long as I own the car) and a 1 year warranty on the mechanicals of the car.

Payout to me would be $74k, which would pay off my loan. Mathematically, I can see why the insurance company would rather spend the $62k to get it fixed. But I hope my email is able to talk some sense in to the claims agent.

 

[668LT4]

If it comes down to it, tell the insurance company you will take a check for 62k and they can keep car. If they fix it instead, you would never be able to sell it for that amount anyways. Your long term value on a near totaled, repaired car would be brutal.

 

[Tall Steve]

I went through the estimate in great detail and searched for nearly every single part. The body shop was very thorough. As thorough as they can be without tearing the car apart even further. Gist of it is that the engine, transmission, and front subframe needs to be removed to replace the front impact side rails. The engine mounts also need replacing so I'm going to make the assumption here that the body shop is very likely to find a lot more damage in the engine bay, and possibly firewall, transmission tunnel, etc. The rear unibody that the trunk lid attaches to is damaged. The passenger side rear quarter panel will need to be cut to see if any further damage is underneath. In addition, the radiator, AC condenser, transmission oil cooler, intercooler radiator, as well as the ducts and plastic surrounding them is damaged and needs replacement. The rear passenger side suspension was also damaged and parts there need replacing. The steering rack and column has been damaged, so the interior needs a teardown. So there is quite a lot underneath. The 2 ton car with me in it did hit the immovable concrete wall at 40-50 MPH, so I expect there to be more than meets the eye.

I sent my claims agent an email informing him that I did thoroughly check the claim, googled part numbers, and spoke with the body shop about the severity of the damage. I pleaded for him to potentially consider it a total loss due to the amount of damage, work needed, amount of time needed, newly discovered damage, and potential parts acquisition issues.

While on paper, it doesn't reach the state law threshold of 80% (it's at 72%), removal of major components could show even further damage than anticipated, and that damage easily crest the 80% threshold during the repairs. In addition, it will take 177.6 man hours, but the agent told me that each 'full day' that he uses as reference is 5.5 hours. So it's looking like a 32 day repair, assuming all the parts come in on time, there are no other damages, and they work on it every day for 6 1/2 weeks. But we all know there will be delays with parts, and that the body shop is busy with other work. I also mentioned that since there is known frame damage that needs to be cut and rewelded, that I'm not confident that the car would be brought back to pre-loss condition. Additionally, it's a high tech car with a lot of electronics and that complete engine removal could mean that these electronics could cause issues in the future due to potential improper assembly. I don't want it to be a safety issue, and I doubt that the body shop will be willing to take on that liability. The body shop has a warranty on bodywork(for as long as I own the car) and a 1 year warranty on the mechanicals of the car.

Payout to me would be $74k, which would pay off my loan. Mathematically, I can see why the insurance company would rather spend the $62k to get it fixed. But I hope my email is able to talk some sense in to the claims agent.

When my sons Camaro was wrecked it totaled up to 75% so I talked to my insurance agent and he made the argument (to adjuster) that more damage is always found that would send it over 80%, so State Farm went ahead and totaled it.....

I wish you good luck on getting it totaled!

 

[almazing]

If it comes down to it, tell the insurance company you will take a check for 62k and they can keep car. If they fix it instead, you would never be able to sell it for that amount anyways. Your long term value on a near totaled, repaired car would be brutal.

Ah yea, that's a good idea. I can convert the rest of my loan in to a consumer loan and just pay it off within a year. But then they'd take 10k off of that as a deductible. I wonder if my gap insurance would even cover the rest, considering the circumstances.

 

[668LT4]

Ah yea, that's a good idea. I can convert the rest of my loan in to a consumer loan and just pay it off within a year. But then they'd take 10k off of that as a deductible. I wonder if my gap insurance would even cover the rest, considering the circumstances.

Not sure if you can even do it that way but let's see. I expect they will decide to total it, which seems like a best result for you. Pulling for you!

 

[almazing]

Not sure if you can even do it that way but let's see. I expect they will decide to total it, which seems like a best result for you. Pulling for you!

I called my bank and they said that it doesn't matter which insurance it is, so long as it is deemed a total loss by said insurance company. I wonder if I can just do what you suggested. Tell insurance I wouldn't want it fixed, have them pay the bank, and deem it a total loss for the amount, minus the deductive they would have removed from the payout. Then handle GAP on the backend, of which I would still be on the hook for the deductible but with my bank instead. Because I know the moment I say I don't want it, keep the car, pay the bank what you will pay me, that it'll be towed to the salvage yard to be auctioned.

 

[almazing]

Seems like my earlier email plea to the claims agent did not fall on deaf ears.

I heard back from the appraiser and she is going to add some additional damage and pricing to the overall estimate which should get it closer to totaling out the vehicle. She said she could have it done for me today. I will monitor and follow up again tomorrow.

Things are looking up, but still not out of the woods just yet. This entire process is a rollercoaster of emotions. Since I now know that the GAP apply with track insurance(for MY bank at least), I will likely get the lowest deductible available and not take in to account money I've already spent, like taxes, registration, etc to the total value of the car.

And I'll probably take an extended break from track driving.

 

[jodakid69]

Yikes! I really feel for you. I am amazed that even with such a high estimate the insurance company would even consider a rebuild.

FYI, it is my "lay persons" perspective that another argument you could/should use is that you purchase a "track capable" vehicle when new. After a crash and rebuild that involves "frame repair", the vehicle might be street capable but not "track capable".

Give them one more chance to do the "right thing" and then go get a good insurance claims attorney. Do not accept a rebuilt car with that much damage.

 

[almazing]

Yikes! I really feel for you. I am amazed that even with such a high estimate the insurance company would even consider a rebuild.

FYI, it is my "lay persons" perspective that another argument you could/should use is that you purchase a "track capable" vehicle when new. After a crash and rebuild that involves "frame repair", the vehicle might be street capable but not "track capable".

Give them one more chance to do the "right thing" and then go get a good insurance claims attorney. Do not accept a rebuilt car with that much damage.

It looks like they're leaning toward getting it totaled, per the email they sent me in my previous post. The claims agent hasn't openly taken 'a side' on what they deem should happen, until this email, which shows me that he is in favor of totaling the vehicle.

If anyone is interested, this is the email I sent to him this morning:

I just spoke with Eveland Brothers about the extent of work that needs to be done, reviewed the current estimate, line by line, searching for individual parts to see the severity of the damage. They told me that the engine and transmission needs to be removed, the passenger side quarter panel needs to be cut open, dashboard disassembly, as well as the rear structure. While the estimate is very thorough, they have not yet begun to disassemble the car in its entirety. There also appears to have been mechanical damage in the form of the cooling system, charge air cooling system(intercooler), transmission and rear differential oil cooling, steering column, and steering gear assembly. Every airbag besides the passenger side has deployed. There is potential for interior damage not being identified during their initial estimate. There is also rear suspension damage, which could have damaged the rear differential and torque vectoring system, when the rear passenger side impacted the concrete wall. Additionally, the engine mounts need replacing, which doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that this repair will bring the car back to pre-loss condition, safely.

Given the current extent of damage now, there's a good chance that even more damage will be found when the engine, transmission, interior, and quarter panel is removed. I know that even with Eveland Brothers' updated labor rates on the estimate, the cost of damages don't reach the Missouri 80% threshold. But I feel that with an additional supplement(or two, or three), the cost could easily go over the 80% threshold. There is also potential for this repair to drag on for much, much longer than expected, given the rarity of this particular car and trim, and unique parts that are not mass produced. 177.6 hours divided by 5.5 hours(a full day, as you told me over the phone yesterday) is 32 work days. That being said, I don't expect them to work on this everyday for 32 days, given their workload and other customer cars, so this has the potential to take much longer than any of us are anticipating.

While I don't feel particularly good about asking this of you, would you consider this as a potential total loss, given how nearly borderline it is, potential unseen additional damages, the still unknown timeline for repairs, as well as potential future problems should it be fixed?

Thank you for your assistance, and as always, it's a pleasure speaking with you.

The claims agent has been great to work with and answered all of my questions. I'm hoping this comes out favorably since totaling it would be the best course of action for everyone involved. The body shop was so convinced that it was totaled, though using their state's formula rather than my state's formula for total loss, that they had it towed out of their lot in to a storage lot. I live on the border of KS and MO, and the total loss formula would apply to where I live and where the car is registered. Body shop fudged the numbers assuming that I lived in their state, though I feel that if they based their estimate on my state's total loss threshold, that we wouldn't be going through this. Can't blame them though. They stay pretty busy, and a single car out of the 150 or so cars they fix a month is barely a blip on their radar.

 

[LF4472]

And I'll probably take an extended break from track driving.

Sounds like a future, fellow iRacing member.

 

[almazing]

Sounds like a future, fellow iRacing member.

Funny you mention that. I play Gran Turismo 7 in VR with a DD sim rig. Not as realistic or competitive as iRacing, but a lot more immersive and a better experience in general. Anyway, when I crashed, I was so ashamed thinking about how shitty of a driver I must be. So I hit the GT7 VR sim rig pretty hard just to see if I am in fact, a shit driver.