Carbon Ceramic replacement cost

[MatthewAMEL]

They may last as long, which isn’t very long. 15 days. That’s a lot of money per day when you look at CCB rotor costs. I’m sure there will soon be other pad offerings as there always are from aftermarket companies that are track only pads with better braking ability and zero fade for the steel. As soon as I get mine in a month or so I intend on bringing it to the track and finding out if the steels actually do fade at all. I’ve seen zero information that would indicate they do. The only tidbit I’ve found was that the former stig who reviewed the car for TFL said GM told him the braking performance between the ccb & steel are the same & the only thing you’re gaining from a track use perspective is lower unsprung weight

Part of this comment is worrisome. You can fade street brakes on the road. Doesn't take a track. Lots of guys find out the hard way when doing 'canyon runs' or something like Tail of the Dragon. Important to understand there is pad fade and fluid fade. CCBs eliminate both.

It's a 4,000lb car. I promise if you drive 9/10th for 20 minutes, you are going to find the limit on any track.

I track my SS 1LE 10-12 times per year (2-day events), including Time Trials and can usually get 2 seasons out of my rotors.

As I stated in my post above, my main reasons for going CCB are no fade worries and the lower unsprung weight. Everyone will have their own use case that determines for them.

Your GM context was in regard to stopping distance, not longevity. No one from GM would claim that the Iron and CCBs have the same fade characteristics.

 

[Carguyshu]

Part of this comment is worrisome. You can fade street brakes on the road. Doesn't take a track. Lots of guys find out the hard way when doing 'canyon runs' or something like Tail of the Dragon. Important to understand there is pad fade and fluid fade. CCBs eliminate both.

It's a 4,000lb car. I promise if you drive 9/10th for 20 minutes, you are going to find the limit on any track.

I track my SS 1LE 10-12 times per year (2-day events), including Time Trials and can usually get 2 seasons out of my rotors.

As I stated in my post above, my main reasons for going CCB are no fade worries and the lower unsprung weight. Everyone will have their own use case that determines for them.

Your GM context was in regard to stopping distance, not longevity. No one from GM would claim that the Iron and CCBs have the same fade characteristics.

CCB have a WORSE problem with possible fluid fade, not better. As far as pad fade, the BW doesn’t have traditional street pads as they have option code je2, which comes with disclaimers about noise & dust in the order guide & I’m sure much higher heat capabilities. We’ll see how well they hold up at my local high speed track. On my other cars (one of which is a 4,000+ 4 door) I run carbotech bc the street pad & track pad are compatible compounds so there’s no need to rebed when switching. Zero fade issues with the track pads & zero fluid issues using motul 600 (I’m switching this year to srf though since fcpeuro is lifetime replacement on all parts including oils & fluids). Since I usually am swapping to a set of track tires & wheels swapping pads isn’t a big deal to do at the same time. It takes me longer to swap the wheels than it does the pads on top loader brembo calipers. I’m hopping the ps4s that are specific to the BW & contain cup 2 compound on the edges are enough that I won’t have to get a second set for the BW & I’m hoping the factory pads are too. Again I plan on testing both very soon. If not there will be aftermarket pads for the steels that will stop better than the CCB available at some point with no potential fade issues. Those kinds of pads unfortunately come with a lot of dust and noise though.

 

[MatthewAMEL]

CCB have a WORSE problem with possible fluid fade, not better. As far as pad fade, the BW doesn’t have traditional street pads as they have option code je2, which comes with disclaimers about noise & dust in the order guide & I’m sure much higher heat capabilities. We’ll see how well they hold up at my local high speed track. On my other cars (one of which is a 4,000+ 4 door) I run carbotech bc the street pad & track pad are compatible compounds so there’s no need to rebed when switching. Zero fade issues with the track pads & zero fluid issues using motul 600 (I’m switching this year to srf though since fcpeuro is lifetime replacement on all parts including oils & fluids). Since I usually am swapping to a set of track tires & wheels swapping pads isn’t a big deal to do at the same time. It takes me longer to swap the wheels than it does the pads on top loader brembo calipers. I’m hopping the ps4s that are specific to the BW & contain cup 2 compound on the edges are enough that I won’t have to get a second set for the BW & I’m hoping the factory pads are too. Again I plan on testing both very soon. If not there will be aftermarket pads for the steels that will stop better than the CCB available at some point with no potential fade issues. Those kinds of pads unfortunately come with a lot of dust and noise though.

The BW iron brake has also been available as an option on the 2021+ Camaro. Already a lot of info out there on the pad material and how it works. The design goal there was to rid the pad material of copper. Not make it an uber-brake. It's why they had to size the rotor and pad up because the pad material was less efficient than the Ferodo that was standard.

Not sure where that pic you posted is from, but it inherently misunderstands how CCBs work and why they are so resistant to fade.

While it's true that iron and CCBs work in fundamentally the same way (trading friction energy for heat energy), the similarities end there.

Iron converts the friction energy by becoming a heat sink. Heat a hunk of iron, like a rotor, to 1000F and it takes a long time to dissipate that heat energy via radiant cooling.

CCBs don't absorb heat energy like iron. And they don't act like a sink for that heat energy. The CCB material also has a much higher friction coefficient than iron, so they generate stopping power much 'faster' with less heat than iron.

Ding the CCBs for their cost, for sure, but not their performance. There is a reason that ALL the Porsche, BMW and AMG driving schools equip their student cars with CCBs.

FYI - I love threads like this. I usually learn something and since CCBs are new to me, I appreciate the discussion.

 

[Carguyshu]

The BW iron brake has also been available as an option on the 2021+ Camaro. Already a lot of info out there on the pad material and how it works. The design goal there was to rid the pad material of copper. Not make it an uber-brake. It's why they had to size the rotor and pad up because the pad material was less efficient than the Ferodo that was standard.

Not sure where that pic you posted is from, but it inherently misunderstands how CCBs work and why they are so resistant to fade.

While it's true that iron and CCBs work in fundamentally the same way (trading friction energy for heat energy), the similarities end there.

Iron converts the friction energy by becoming a heat sink. Heat a hunk of iron, like a rotor, to 1000F and it takes a long time to dissipate that heat energy via radiant cooling.

CCBs don't absorb heat energy like iron. And they don't act like a sink for that heat energy. The CCB material also has a much higher friction coefficient than iron, so they generate stopping power much 'faster' with less heat than iron.

Ding the CCBs for their cost, for sure, but not their performance. There is a reason that ALL the Porsche, BMW and AMG driving schools equip their student cars with CCBs.

FYI - I love threads like this. I usually learn something and since CCBs are new to me, I appreciate the discussion.

Good quote from Mirza in motor trend. Maybe he can hop in and comment

“You see, this Blackwing is big and exceptionally powerful. Getting it stopped quickly, repeatably, and reliably on track is no small feat, even for the powerful cast-iron-rotor-based Brembo system fitted as standard. (A carbon-ceramic Brembo disc setup is optional.) Doing it with a traditional pad is hard enough, but once you remove heat-dissipating copper from the pad's compound (which is done for environmental reasons), it becomes a true challenge. And it's one Grebovic obviously relished, as he told me about the roughly 20 compounds they tested before settling on one that met noise and temperature targets while surviving almost 800 laps during a marathon, 24-hour track testing session.”

We Drive the 668-HP 2022 Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing, and It's Bombastic Fantastic

Oh, and it costs tens of thousands less than a BMW M5.

www.motortrend.com

 

[Carguyshu]

15 track days and 7k just to replace the front rotors means you’re adding $466 in cost to each track day for front rotors only! Starts to make the driving schools seem cheap

 

[Carguyshu]

Part of this comment is worrisome. You can fade street brakes on the road. Doesn't take a track. Lots of guys find out the hard way when doing 'canyon runs' or something like Tail of the Dragon. Important to understand there is pad fade and fluid fade. CCBs eliminate both.

It's a 4,000lb car. I promise if you drive 9/10th for 20 minutes, you are going to find the limit on any track.

I track my SS 1LE 10-12 times per year (2-day events), including Time Trials and can usually get 2 seasons out of my rotors.

As I stated in my post above, my main reasons for going CCB are no fade worries and the lower unsprung weight. Everyone will have their own use case that determines for them.

Your GM context was in regard to stopping distance, not longevity. No one from GM would claim that the Iron and CCBs have the same fade characteristics.

According to what he says in the video it’s full 24 hour track tested with same durability, not just stopping distance. Again would be nice for Mirza to double confirm

 

[Carguyshu]

As a follow up to all this I’ve tracked my steels enough to already be on my third front set & second rear. Zero fade. Zero issues. I drive both a CCB equipped car & steel car at spring mountain. Couldn’t tell a difference & the instructors said the same. I’d suggest anyone looking or wanting more info on steel vs ccb to watch the savagegeese blackwing video. They talked to the engineers and give out a lot of great info from them. In that video they’re actually a bit surprised that the CCB are as good as the steels on track (not the other way around)…

 

[MatthewAMEL]

As a follow up to all this I’ve tracked my steels enough to already be on my third front set & second rear. Zero fade. Zero issues. I drive both a CCB equipped car & steel car at spring mountain. Couldn’t tell a difference & the instructors said the same. I’d suggest anyone looking or wanting more info on steel vs ccb to watch the savagegeese blackwing video. They talked to the engineers and give out a lot of great info from them. In that video they’re actually a bit surprised that the CCB are as good as the steels on track (not the other way around)…

I'm not sure what track you are running, but at Daytona, an A10, steel brake BW5 had to back off in two of the three sessions because he was getting the 'brake temp' warning. I ran in the same sessions with him in my CCB car and never had an iota of fade.

 

[Carguyshu]

I'm not sure what track you are running, but at Daytona, an A10, steel brake BW5 had to back off in two of the three sessions because he was getting the 'brake temp' warning. I ran in the same sessions with him in my CCB car and never had an iota of fade.

That warning is based on an algorithm. There are no actual sensors. The pedal is also brake by wire so anything you feel is completely simulated.

 

[MatthewAMEL]

That warning is based on an algorithm. There are no actual sensors. The pedal is also brake by wire so anything you feel is completely simulated.

A) I thought there were sensors on the pads

B) You are saying it's ok to ignore the warning messages?

 

[Carguyshu]

A) I thought there were sensors on the pads

B) You are saying it's ok to ignore the warning messages?

The sensors are for pad wear. There are no sensors regarding heat. That message pops up from an algorithm calculating if the car thinks things are too hot or not based on calculations it’s made based on assumptions. Perhaps the other person has a different driving style and/or was in a different driving mode that caused the car to actuate the brakes more via the stability program.

 

[poor-sha]

The way I understand the system is it is based on the brake fluid and it can sense a “soft pedal” based on the amount of boost required to maintain it at a defined level. I don’t believe it’s estimating based on how you drive.

It’s possible that the other person didn’t have as good or as fresh a brake fluid in their car. It’s also possible that the lower thermal capacity of the iron brakes, or lower pad thickness, we’re putting more heat in to the fluid. Or as you said it could be the way the other driver was using the brakes (long slow braking at high speed generates a lot of heat in the system)

I’m basing all this on my experience with the C8 brake by wire system and an exchange I had with the Corvette chief brake engineer after I had an issue on track with the C8.

 

[rdollie]

I'm not sure what track you are running, but at Daytona, an A10, steel brake BW5 had to back off in two of the three sessions because he was getting the 'brake temp' warning. I ran in the same sessions with him in my CCB car and never had an iota of fade.

Unless you know how much water was in his brake fluid, how much pad life left, what type of pads, etc., that's a meaningless comparison. It's not data, it's an anecdote.

 

[MatthewAMEL]

The sensors are for pad wear. There are no sensors regarding heat. That message pops up from an algorithm calculating if the car thinks things are too hot or not based on calculations it’s made based on assumptions. Perhaps the other person has a different driving style and/or was in a different driving mode that caused the car to actuate the brakes more via the stability program.

Honestly, it seems you are making my point for me...

In every other car I have tracked, the brake pedal was your 'caution light' during a session. By taking away direct pedal feel and providing no way to directly monitor brake temps, I went with the CCB option because I know I can stop with them.

Unless you know how much water was in his brake fluid, how much pad life left, what type of pads, etc., that's a meaningless comparison. It's not data, it's an anecdote.

He claimed fresh Motul 600. How old can it be? He had only had the car 9 months.

Of course it’s anecdotal. AFAIK, no one has done a heads up comparison between the CCB/Iron cars.

 

[Carguyshu]

Honestly, it seems you are making my point for me...

In every other car I have tracked, the brake pedal was your 'caution light' during a session. By taking away direct pedal feel and providing no way to directly monitor brake temps, I went with the CCB option because I know I can stop with them.

He claimed fresh Motul 600. How old can it be? He had only had the car 9 months.

Of course it’s anecdotal. AFAIK, no one has done a heads up comparison between the CCB/Iron cars.

I've done a straight comparison between the 2 on the exact same track on the exact same day. The instructors at spring mountain have done a straight comparison. GM has done a straight comparison (and have stated through numerous media outlets the track capabilities are the same). Again, watch the SavageGeese video (

) where they pour over all kind of details given to them by GM and Brembo engineers regarding the 2 systems beginning at the 7:11 start.

On a 6 speed car the brake fluid and clutch fluid share a reservoir, so if the fluid is gone (which would be extremely difficult if using fresh fluid like SRF) you'd know b/c the clutch wouldn't work. There is near 0 possibility GM would chance a lawsuit on their warning message algorithm when it comes to the brake system.

FWIW the steel brakes also come with a lot more cooling capabilities vs the CCB as the rotor shields can be removed and swapped with ones that only cover the balljoints to protect them from heat. CCB must keep the shields on restricting airflow so as not to risk damage.

 

[jvp]

CCB must keep the shields on restricting airflow so as not to risk damage.

I disagree with most of what you're written as I've been actively using CCBs at the race track since my 2010 ZR1. But this one, right here, is just outright false. If you're concerned about damage, that's on you, of course. But the rotors are not actually any more at risk with or without the shields on.

 

[Carguyshu]

I disagree with most of what you're written as I've been actively using CCBs at the race track since my 2010 ZR1. But this one, right here, is just outright false. If you're concerned about damage, that's on you, of course. But the rotors are not actually any more at risk with or without the shields on.

You must know more than the people that designed and engineered it then lol. Must not have included those for no reason at all on the CCB…

 

[jvp]

You must know more than the people that designed and engineered it then lol. Must not have included those for no reason at all on the CCB…

I understand you probably don't have any idea who I am, and that's fine. Folks who know me from the Corvette Forum know that when I speak with respect to technical aspects of GM vehicles, I do so with authority. I have contacts well within the engineering community at that company.

I'm also a brake wonk. I get how they work. And I clearly have more experience using them than you do. ;-) CCBs are not at any more risk from surface damage than steels are. The risk is their edges, and even then it's a very low risk. They're a lot tougher than they're given credit for.

 

[Carguyshu]

I understand you probably don't have any idea who I am, and that's fine. Folks who know me from the Corvette Forum know that when I speak with respect to technical aspects of GM vehicles, I do so with authority. I have contacts well within the engineering community at that company.

I'm also a brake wonk. I get how they work. And I clearly have more experience using them than you do. ;-) CCBs are not at any more risk from surface damage than steels are. The risk is their edges, and even then it's a very low risk. They're a lot tougher than they're given credit for.

so they didn't include them for no reason you're saying

 

[jvp]

so they didn't include them for no reason you're saying

There's a funny double-negative.

Your point, which is incorrect, was that, quote:

FWIW the steel brakes also come with a lot more cooling capabilities vs the CCB as the rotor shields can be removed and swapped with ones that only cover the balljoints to protect them from heat. CCB must keep the shields on restricting airflow so as not to risk damage.

And I replied that they're no MORE at risk. Read my words carefully; I wrote them carefully. ;-)