CT5-V 5BW v. 4BW

[Roadhawk]

Great write up 99sport! I'm with you WRT manual tranny preference. All of our cars have been MT except for 2 - the 64 Stang and a 95 Mazda Millennia Supercharged. Stang has been in the family since new and I always wished it was stick (an Hi Po) but oh well...and I'm totally fine with it as an auto now. The Mazda was a great car...and I even thought to maybe somehow convert it to MT (as they were sold that way in Europe)...but never did. The fact that it was an auto made it easier to part with when we did...though I did like driving the car.

I get what your saying about auto vs MT in the 5. I was never in the market for a 5...but I considered a bunch of cars (BMW M2/Audi RS3 primarily) before choosing the 4. A big (huge) factor in going with the 4BW was available MT.

 

[raptor5244]

This is a personal question - my opinion isn't right for everyone. What else do you own or have you owned in the past? Does your garage have a 60s muscle car with a 4 speed or a Lotus Elise in it? (The manual trans experience in the 5 is a lot more like the former than the latter).

The only reason I'm sharing my thoughts is that you specifically are looking for a manual trans experience with the Blackwing. To cut to the chase, I own a 5 Blackwing, but think the 4 is a better manual trans experience.

As background, I currently own 9 cars with manual transmissions; I've never bought a car without a manual transmission; I've daily driven manual trans cars since high school (30 years), including a 66 Mustang with a 4 speed in stop and go traffic in downtown Los Angeles on the freeway (very heavy clutch pedal). I never, ever would have considered a blackwing (or any other car) with an auto. In short, I am a manual trans snob. Having said all of that, I think the 5 BW is a better car with the auto. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the clutch / shifter / trans in the 5 - they are executed perfectly. But rowing the gear box in the 5 does not bring me joy the way it does in my other cars. And the auto is faster and more "effortless" - I think it is a better match for the engine.

I have an S2000 and 90% of the pleasure of that car is working the clutch and shifter and winding the motor out to 9,000 RPM. Because it only has 240 horsepower, you can go to a canyon road and wind out second gear on every straight before shifting to 3rd and then heel and toe downshift to second for every corner. I also have a 1930 model A Ford, and the pleasure in driving that car is double clutching every downshift because the trans doesn't have any syncros. I also have a couple 90s Civics and the clutch is so light, and the shifter so fluid that it's completely effortless to heel and toe for right hand turns in city traffic - and again the power is low so you can wind out all the gears and heel and to every downshift and not go to prison. In all of those cars the shifting is natural and effortless (after 30 years even the double clutch in the A is subconscious)

The 5, while a magnificent piece of engineering, just doesn't make me want to shift - ever. The clutch pedal force is totally manageable, but it isn't what anyone would describe as effortless. And, there really is no need to shift on a twisty road. Leave it in 3rd (which is good for 115 mph) and it will be faster than anything you'll ever encounter. The fraction of a second faster the car would be if you downshifted to second on every corner adds no pleasure and you'll pay for it with a sore leg the next day. In fact, the car will pull away from a stop in 3rd gear more easily than any of the other cars listed above will do in 1st. There really is no reason to shift - it's completely optional.

As for the 4 vs 5 - the advantages I see of the 5 are the engine sound and the larger back seats. I think the engine sound of the 5 is worth 30 grand, but excepting the back seats, I prefer pretty much everything else about the 4. The biggest downside of the 5 in my opinion is the added power. It's not usable on the street - you have to track that car to take advantage of the power. To use full throttle in the 5 you need warm tires, a warm, perfectly smooth, and empty road. Even then, you can't use full throttle for more than 2 or 3 seconds. So while the sound of the 5 is among the best sounding engines / exhausts of all time (boy, does that sound bring me pleasure), you can't hear it at full throttle for more than a couple of seconds. The 4, in contrast, has less power so you can actually row the gears and use full throttle in a lot more situations on the street. Also, something about the 4 makes heel and toeing subconscious, while I never do it on the 5. (I wonder if the trans tunnel isn't wider on the 5 and encroaches on the pedal box.)

As a final aside, I did spring mountain twice - once in a 4 and once in a 5. With the 4, the instructor asked why I was on the throttle under braking at the end of the straight - I said I didn't know as I never left foot brake. I reviewed the PDR footage, and I heel and toed EVERY SINGLE downshift on the 4, but I had no I idea I had done it even once - it was completely subconscious and effortless. Even at 1100 miles on the 5, I still struggle to heel and toe in it - not sure why. I, personally, prefer the MT experience in the 4 over the 5. If only they would put a NA V8 (for the sound) in the 4 I'd be the first in line with a deposit.

Note that there is a big price difference for the 5 vs the 4. Could you keep your current 5 non BW for daily use and use the $50K it would probably cost you to upgrade to the 5 BW to buy a Miata, GR86, Lotus Elise, used Boxter, etc for fun weekend use and keep a car you are otherwise happy with?

Well said, I share similar opinions. I agree that the A10 is the better transmission for the LT4 engine. All those tightly spaced fast shifting gears help keep the supercharger in boost and extract the most performance from the engine. The M6 transmission uses taller gearing when mated to the LT4 in the 5BW and ZL1. Although you have gobs of torque you can't really let that LT4 sing since on the street the gearing is so tall. 60mph in 1st, 83mph in 2nd, 113mph in 3rd.

I traded a ZL1 with A10 for the 4BW with M6. The ZL1 is a beast but I enjoy driving the 4BW much more. The car feels more nimble, great seating position, visibility, etc. The only miss is the 4BW should have had the LT1 for the V8 exhaust note, but there are a bunch of threads on that already. That said, the LF4 TT V6 has really grown on me. Very little turbo lag and sounds really good for a V6.

Coming from a 2021 Camaro ZL1, which cost $67k new, I could not justify the extra cost of the 5BW. I had trouble justifying $61k for my 4BW. I owned a few Camaro 2SS 1LEs that only cost $45k loaded up with Recaro seats, HUD, Brembos, mag-ride, e-diff, etc. so I struggle with the Cadillac tax.

 

[DAC17]

This is a personal question - my opinion isn't right for everyone. What else do you own or have you owned in the past? Does your garage have a 60s muscle car with a 4 speed or a Lotus Elise in it? (The manual trans experience in the 5 is a lot more like the former than the latter).

The only reason I'm sharing my thoughts is that you specifically are looking for a manual trans experience with the Blackwing. To cut to the chase, I own a 5 Blackwing, but think the 4 is a better manual trans experience.

As background, I currently own 9 cars with manual transmissions; I've never bought a car without a manual transmission; I've daily driven manual trans cars since high school (30 years), including a 66 Mustang with a 4 speed in stop and go traffic in downtown Los Angeles on the freeway (very heavy clutch pedal). I never, ever would have considered a blackwing (or any other car) with an auto. In short, I am a manual trans snob. Having said all of that, I think the 5 BW is a better car with the auto. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the clutch / shifter / trans in the 5 - they are executed perfectly. But rowing the gear box in the 5 does not bring me joy the way it does in my other cars. And the auto is faster and more "effortless" - I think it is a better match for the engine.

I have an S2000 and 90% of the pleasure of that car is working the clutch and shifter and winding the motor out to 9,000 RPM. Because it only has 240 horsepower, you can go to a canyon road and wind out second gear on every straight before shifting to 3rd and then heel and toe downshift to second for every corner. I also have a 1930 model A Ford, and the pleasure in driving that car is double clutching every downshift because the trans doesn't have any syncros. I also have a couple 90s Civics and the clutch is so light, and the shifter so fluid that it's completely effortless to heel and toe for right hand turns in city traffic - and again the power is low so you can wind out all the gears and heel and to every downshift and not go to prison. In all of those cars the shifting is natural and effortless (after 30 years even the double clutch in the A is subconscious)

The 5, while a magnificent piece of engineering, just doesn't make me want to shift - ever. The clutch pedal force is totally manageable, but it isn't what anyone would describe as effortless. And, there really is no need to shift on a twisty road. Leave it in 3rd (which is good for 115 mph) and it will be faster than anything you'll ever encounter. The fraction of a second faster the car would be if you downshifted to second on every corner adds no pleasure and you'll pay for it with a sore leg the next day. In fact, the car will pull away from a stop in 3rd gear more easily than any of the other cars listed above will do in 1st. There really is no reason to shift - it's completely optional.

As for the 4 vs 5 - the advantages I see of the 5 are the engine sound and the larger back seats. I think the engine sound of the 5 is worth 30 grand, but excepting the back seats, I prefer pretty much everything else about the 4. The biggest downside of the 5 in my opinion is the added power. It's not usable on the street - you have to track that car to take advantage of the power. To use full throttle in the 5 you need warm tires, a warm, perfectly smooth, and empty road. Even then, you can't use full throttle for more than 2 or 3 seconds. So while the sound of the 5 is among the best sounding engines / exhausts of all time (boy, does that sound bring me pleasure), you can't hear it at full throttle for more than a couple of seconds. The 4, in contrast, has less power so you can actually row the gears and use full throttle in a lot more situations on the street. Also, something about the 4 makes heel and toeing subconscious, while I never do it on the 5. (I wonder if the trans tunnel isn't wider on the 5 and encroaches on the pedal box.)

As a final aside, I did spring mountain twice - once in a 4 and once in a 5. With the 4, the instructor asked why I was on the throttle under braking at the end of the straight - I said I didn't know as I never left foot brake. I reviewed the PDR footage, and I heel and toed EVERY SINGLE downshift on the 4, but I had no I idea I had done it even once - it was completely subconscious and effortless. Even at 1100 miles on the 5, I still struggle to heel and toe in it - not sure why. I, personally, prefer the MT experience in the 4 over the 5. If only they would put a NA V8 (for the sound) in the 4 I'd be the first in line with a deposit.

Note that there is a big price difference for the 5 vs the 4. Could you keep your current 5 non BW for daily use and use the $50K it would probably cost you to upgrade to the 5 BW to buy a Miata, GR86, Lotus Elise, used Boxter, etc for fun weekend use and keep a car you are otherwise happy with?

This is a great summary of one of the thoughts that I've had. I previously owned a 6-speed Miata, and absolutely loved the feeling of that drivetrain. The shift action, clutch engagement; the whole experience was excellent. And I have looked at the GR86 and BRZ. But they're really hard to find around the northeast. I am seriously thinking about your comments, and appreciate the time you took to write them.

Thanks.

 

[Kevin0311]

I also appreciate that insight as i have a manual ZL1 and manual SS sedan currently and gave zero thought of auto BW until reading your thoughts. Looking through the auto gets a lot more features available for someone like myself that plans on road tripping the car some, and surprisingly the CF1/CF2 are not available with adaptive or super cruise though. I have super cruise in my Silverado and love it for long overnight drives.

 

[MookdocOE]

Well said, I share similar opinions. I agree that the A10 is the better transmission for the LT4 engine. All those tightly spaced fast shifting gears help keep the supercharger in boost and extract the most performance from the engine. The M6 transmission uses taller gearing when mated to the LT4 in the 5BW and ZL1. Although you have gobs of torque you can't really let that LT4 sing since on the street the gearing is so tall. 60mph in 1st, 83mph in 2nd, 113mph in 3rd.

I traded a ZL1 with A10 for the 4BW with M6. The ZL1 is a beast but I enjoy driving the 4BW much more. The car feels more nimble, great seating position, visibility, etc. The only miss is the 4BW should have had the LT1 for the V8 exhaust note, but there are a bunch of threads on that already. That said, the LF4 TT V6 has really grown on me. Very little turbo lag and sounds really good for a V6.

Coming from a 2021 Camaro ZL1, which cost $67k new, I could not justify the extra cost of the 5BW. I had trouble justifying $61k for my 4BW. I owned a few Camaro 2SS 1LEs that only cost $45k loaded up with Recaro seats, HUD, Brembos, mag-ride, e-diff, etc. so I struggle with the Cadillac tax.

Very good on that summary and I tend to agree. I want something to shift and I keep looking at the 4? I wonder why?

 

[rubberduck]

Well said, I share similar opinions. I agree that the A10 is the better transmission for the LT4 engine. All those tightly spaced fast shifting gears help keep the supercharger in boost and extract the most performance from the engine. The M6 transmission uses taller gearing when mated to the LT4 in the 5BW and ZL1. Although you have gobs of torque you can't really let that LT4 sing since on the street the gearing is so tall. 60mph in 1st, 83mph in 2nd, 113mph in 3rd.

I traded a ZL1 with A10 for the 4BW with M6. The ZL1 is a beast but I enjoy driving the 4BW much more. The car feels more nimble, great seating position, visibility, etc. The only miss is the 4BW should have had the LT1 for the V8 exhaust note, but there are a bunch of threads on that already. That said, the LF4 TT V6 has really grown on me. Very little turbo lag and sounds really good for a V6.

Coming from a 2021 Camaro ZL1, which cost $67k new, I could not justify the extra cost of the 5BW. I had trouble justifying $61k for my 4BW. I owned a few Camaro 2SS 1LEs that only cost $45k loaded up with Recaro seats, HUD, Brembos, mag-ride, e-diff, etc. so I struggle with the Cadillac tax.

Relatively speaking I’m an automobile noob in comparison to most on this forum, although I’ve been driving for 40+ years. I’m pretty good at working on vehicles based on some of the questions I see raised here.

What I have noticed on the forum is quite a lot of Blackwing buyers have or have had Camaros. I had a 72 Camaro, I was never interested in the newer Camaros and since 2010 have only been buying sedans. Some may find this mind boggling but before I bought my 22 5BW MT I was shopping for a Mercedes S580. I also looked at the Audi RS7 (I owned a B8 S4 and loved that car). These are big heavy cars and make the 5BW look nimble in comparison. Also note they are all V8s with AT.

I hadn’t been following the automotive news much in the last decade until I accidentally found some YouTube videos on the 5BW. After a couple hours of videos that evening I begin my plan of attack the following morning. I’m a very goal oriented person and when I make my mind up to do something I keep working until I have achieved the desired outcome. The goal was to procure a new 5BW at MSRP. This was February 2022 and things were much different from today. Back then big ADMs and scarce availability were the norm. I achieved my goal in July 2022.

My takeaway is that people come into the 5BW from a variety of backgrounds. If it weren’t for the 6-spd I don’t think I would be driving a 5BW today. Almost 18 months after taking delivery I have zero regrets and still all smiles. However, I can see (just barely) why a person with a huge bullpen may consider an AT in these cars. I’m not such a person nor wish to be, I have too many hobbies already.

 

[raptor5244]

My takeaway is that people come into the 5BW from a variety of backgrounds. If it weren’t for the 6-spd I don’t think I would be driving a 5BW today. Almost 18 months after taking delivery I have zero regrets and still all smiles. However, I can see (just barely) why a person with a huge bullpen may consider an AT in these cars. I’m not such a person nor wish to be, I have too many hobbies already.

I hear you. I should clarify. While I feel the A10 is the technically superior transmission for the LT4, I grew bored with it in my ZL1. I need more engagement when driving a sports sedan like this and paddles don't do it for me so I would pick the M6 transmission every time even with the tall gearing I complain about or if it is slower than the A10.

For those still on the fence trying to decide this is a good video of an A10 pull so you can see how it shifts. It transforms how the car drives as a result of those tightly spaced quick shifting gears. You can see the A10 is in the middle of 4th gear at 83mph, while the M6 would be winding out the top of 2nd gear. This is nothing new, we know already that modern automatics are are technically superior but not as much fun. Otherwise I would have a C8 in my garage.

In the 2nd video you can see how fast you are going from just from a nice 1>2 shift in the M6. This is where some of the frustration comes from with the LT4 and those that like to shift. It has too much power and tall gears. You are already going 60mph at the top of 1st and if you pull a little in 2nd you are in the mid 80s already. It is awesome but hard to enjoy on the street without risking your license, assuming you like to wind out the gears every now and then. If you are happy short shifting with gobs of torque then that could keep you satisfied. Now, while you can lose your license just as fast with a 4BW, the lesser power and shorter gearing allow you to keep your foot in it just a bit more. I find the 4BW more fun but nothing beats a Miata on the street if you like to run through the gears.

A10 pull

M6 pull

 

[Finally-a-V]

@99sport ....really good write up and great thoughts. It's like I said earlier, with the 5, your at triple speeds in seconds. As someone else said, you almost can't go full throttle. I'm not really sure I ever have. I think as a DD, the 4 is the real way to go. Fast enough for normal roads, a blast in the curves, pretty decent pricing.

As my son has said.....it's more fun to go fast in a slow car, than slow in a fast car. Either way, I love my 5, and it's not going anywhere.

 

[rubberduck]

In the 2nd video you can see how fast you are going from just from a nice 1>2 shift in the M6. This is where some of the frustration comes from with the LT4 and those that like to shift. It has too much power and tall gears. You are already going 60mph at the top of 1st and if you pull a little in 2nd you are in the mid 80s already. It is awesome but hard to enjoy on the street without risking your license, assuming you like to wind out the gears every now and then. If you are happy short shifting with gobs of torque then that could keep you satisfied. Now, while you can lose your license just as fast with a 4BW, the lesser power and shorter gearing allow you to keep your foot in it just a bit more. I find the 4BW more fun but nothing beats a Miata on the street if you like to run through the gears.

I would agree that if a person wants to shift at redline every time the M6 is going to be a problem on the street. Normally I shift between 3K and 4K on the street and that is plenty satisfying for me. Sometimes at 5K or a little above. I like laying down rubber at the stoplight and it's so easy to do with the M6. I don't know about how that works with the A10. But I stated this many times, why do some people think it's necessary to shift at redline all the time?

 

[No Usury]

While I feel the A10 is the technically superior transmission for the LT4, I grew bored with it in my ZL1. I need more engagement when driving a sports sedan like this and paddles don't do it for me so I would pick the M6 transmission every time even with the tall gearing I complain about or if it is slower than the A10...

I think for a driver's car the number of auto gears practically tops out at 8. The 10-speed may be more "efficient," but for an active driver it looks like it behaves more like a CVT than a multi-geared transmission.

Still, it looks like that is what I will be getting. Maybe some post-purchase trans work with HP Tuners will make it more palatable.

 

[1Evil55]

My auto SS became a real fun driver after I added a Livernois tune including the trans updates. Went from a fun car to badassery chirping 1-2 and even 2-3 sometimes. I was hoping we'd get this option for our A10 eventually but with the short ratio through 10 gears I don't expect anything any time soon.

 

[CBH]

I can't believe any of the 3 pedal believers would ever consider getting an automatic when 3 pedals are available.

You are correct that just leaving it in 3rd will suffice for nearly all street legal activities - so just do that.

On the Texas autobahn (er, tollway), you can use all the power. When you need to accelerate from 100, you can use every available HP.

But the best use case is passing people on small, curvy country roads. When you only have a few car lengths to make a pass, you need every available pony. Be ready in 3rd and then floor it.........50 to 90 in an instant.

 

[No Usury]

My auto SS became a real fun driver after I added a Livernois tune including the trans updates. Went from a fun car to badassery chirping 1-2 and even 2-3 sometimes. I was hoping we'd get this option for our A10 eventually but with the short ratio through 10 gears I don't expect anything any time soon.

I ordered a gray SS in October of 2016 (it's a 2017) and have been driving it ever since. I still love the car – it's my DD – but it's getting a little long in the tooth, especially technology-wise. Every once in a while my radio locks up and I have to wait until I start it again to reboot it.

I really wish the BW5 was A8, but I may have to bite the bullet and pull the trigger (though not at the same time). I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and driving a stick from Berkeley to San Jose cured me of my M6 affliction for good... I'd get out of my car in San Jose not feeling my left foot.

 

[CaddyTrack]

and working on getting #2

 

[RDATLTE]

I ordered a gray SS in October of 2016 (it's a 2017) and have been driving it ever since. I still love the car – it's my DD – but it's getting a little long in the tooth, especially technology-wise. Every once in a while my radio locks up and I have to wait until I start it again to reboot it.

I really wish the BW5 was A8, but I may have to bite the bullet and pull the trigger (though not at the same time). I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and driving a stick from Berkeley to San Jose cured me of my M6 affliction for good... I'd get out of my car in San Jose not feeling my left foot.

I do believe that this is the first time that I've seen wish and A8 in the same sentence besides from those people wishing that they hadn't selected an A8.

 

[rubberduck]

I really wish the BW5 was A8, but I may have to bite the bullet and pull the trigger (though not at the same time). I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and driving a stick from Berkeley to San Jose cured me of my M6 affliction for good... I'd get out of my car in San Jose not feeling my left foot.

I drove a RX-7 M6 in the Bay Area for 2 years working in San Jose. Then I did the only logical thing, kept the car and left the Bay.

 

[1Evil55]

I ordered a gray SS in October of 2016 (it's a 2017) and have been driving it ever since. I still love the car – it's my DD – but it's getting a little long in the tooth, especially technology-wise. Every once in a while my radio locks up and I have to wait until I start it again to reboot it.

I really wish the BW5 was A8, but I may have to bite the bullet and pull the trigger (though not at the same time). I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and driving a stick from Berkeley to San Jose cured me of my M6 affliction for good... I'd get out of my car in San Jose not feeling my left foot.

Sorry to hear, you had to live in the bay.

I couldn't help but then notice your location. Reminds me of my better days as that is the name of a hot spot we'd meet up for races. 75th and Lemont road

 

[jbawden]

These threads always turn into sales pitches (or maybe a subtle request to validate our choices) but you'll never sell me on the automatic over the manual or the 4 over the 5 and I don't expect anyone to be swayed by my opinion that the manual 5BW is among the greatest cars ever produced. This thread is all sales people but no customers. I'm going to try to be more disciplined and not fall for the bait next time

 

[Finally-a-V]

IDK, I think the 10 speed is a huge improvement over the old 8. Shifts are almost invisible. It kicks down in a spilt second for passing. In track mode, I do know my 4 never got above 8th, even at 60-70 mph. Drive it in track. I think you'd be surprised how much better response it has.

 

[RobC7]

IDK, I think the 10 speed is a huge improvement over the old 8. Shifts are almost invisible. It kicks down in a spilt second for passing. In track mode, I do know my 4 never got above 8th, even at 60-70 mph. Drive it in track. I think you'd be surprised how much better response it has.

No one wants the A8 as it's an utter POS. I'm not saying all of them are but many have had numerous issues and replacements. There's a reason there is a class action law suit.

A10 is a "great" transmission for someone who wants an automatic but it's a definite no for me.