5BW for 4BW

[themodern6spdsedan]

MookdocOE: You’re correct! The nimbleness factor of the 4BW is great. I take it to the canyons and is a blast to drive around the switchbacks. I also have the same reaction with my 4BW whenever trying to make a u-turn…same reaction being “like wtf” hahaha. Sometimes I see full size SUVs complete a u-turn, while here I am with a midsize sedan not being able to complete a u-turn lol. Annoying, but like you and Champale said…you just get over it and it quickly passes by.

Champale: I also tend to have adult passengers and it sucks cause they seemed cramped in the back. I don’t always transport them and for the most part, it’s only me. But, I just didn’t anticipate transporting adult passengers more than I had imagined lol. The way you describe lighting the tires up at 80mph in 3rd seems so joyful lol. I can’t afford the 5BW, so I just might get a tune and call it a day lol.

 

[Champale]

The 5BW is truly joyful once you figure out the modes (and especially the way you turn all of the TC/ESC stuff off). That V8 makes every day better, I promise. It does need a little more exhaust volume, though.

However, the 4BW is hardly 2nd rate in any way, shape, or form. I drove one a week after taking delivery of my 5BW and got barely half a mile down the road and thought to myself "I bought the wrong car!" The 4BW is such an exceptional driver's car and feels a lot more precise than my 5BW. I keep contemplating selling my Evora 400 for a 4BW and, let me tell you, that says a lot about how exceptional the 4BW truly is because the Evoras are unbelievably good, exciting in ways that most modern cars can't even begin to touch.

 

[seattlecubes]

I had a 4BW and I’m here to tell you that the PERFECT sports sedan is a mix somewhere between the 4BW and 5BW…

Now…first things first. It’s not like the 4BW had a stellar turning radius and I don’t live somewhere where I have to make a bunch of u-turns so I don’t think that’s a deciding factor, but the turning radius of the 5BW is A LOT worse. It’s like that of a long bed mid-sized truck and the first time I had to make a u-turn I laughed out loud.

I do think the difference between the two cars in the real world over the road isn’t as great as people/press figures would have you believe. That said, I’m just out of break-in, and I can tell the 5BW wants to murder its tires, and the power that it does have isn’t usable on the street-I’m not an aggressive driver at all fwiw (I’m averaging 21mpg).

So…basically the 4BW kind of answers the old beer commercial slogan “Tastes great - less filling.” . But you’re probably saying, “If the 4BW is so great, why did you trade out of it?” The interior space, specifically shoulder and leg room, front and back, is a BIG difference. The 4BW is basically 2+2 with 4 doors and no adult could sit comfortably behind me (and I’m not super tall). I’m assuming that a side effect of the larger size of the 5BW is that it rides much smoother than the 4BW too.

To me though, the 4BW still has way sharper turn-in and crisper handling, and frankly (controversially), I think it’s better looking too But…you only live once, so I figured I’d give it a shot. My only regret is that I don’t have room for a 4BW and a 5BW in my garage.

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

Champale: I liked how you mentioned that the 4BW is “such an exceptional driver’s car.” My uncle tells me why I didn’t get an M3, I told him cause I felt that the 4BW was more of a “driver’s car” than the M3…to each their own. Sure the M3 is the faster car, but to me it feels less engaging than the 4BW. What also got me from your comment was how you mentioned that you felt that you “bought the wrong car.” Hahaha! I get it though, it’s such a hard choice between the 4BW and the 5BW. I wish Cadillac can just create a BW wagon and call it a day lol. I think it would be a fusion of the 4BW and 5BW...but all in one car.

Seattlecubes: When you said the 5BW is “a lot worse” in regards to turning radius...you pretty much answered my question/concern. For it to be that bad, I'm staying away from the 5BW lol. I'm already annoyed at the 4BW's turning radius, I can't imagine my reaction would be with the 5BW. Wow! You’re averaging 21 mpg on a V8, while here I am averaging 13 mpg on a V6…I drive my car hard, but didn’t know I was driving it that hard lol. As you, Champale, and the others here have pointed out – the 4BW has sharper and more precise handling than the 5BW. As a driver that loves to drive around the canyons hitting the switchbacks, I think the 4BW is king here. As you all also mentioned, the 4BW is more of a balanced car than the 5BW. I'm glad I have my 4BW for the canyons.

Based on everyone’s inputs and insights, I’ve decided to keep my 4BW and just accept the lack of legroom situation. I’m hoping to just get a 2nd car in the future that has decent legroom. However, does anyone here know if replacing the OEM seats with aftermarket would create a little more legroom in the back? I’m thinking if there are any aftermarket ones that aren’t as thick or cushiony as the OEM ones…I think that could possibly create a little legroom. Thoughts?

 

[1Evil55]

Turning radius differences is truly night and day. But who really cares about that? The difference for me is the response each car give differently to the same input from me. The 4 will do just about anything you ask it just takes more effort. The 5 is such a beast that it does everything you ask and more instantly. The 4 is the perfect SCCA type of car and the 5 is made for the big tracks. With the right driver I could see the 4 make faster lap times also dependent on the track.

 

[seattlecubes]

@themodern6spdsedan - I don’t think you can go wrong either way you decide to go (turning radius aside) but if you prefer your cars with a more Euro/Tuner type of feel, the 4BW is your Huckleberry.

 

[Kawman]

I'd put deposits down for two 4BW's and one 5BW when I first heard about them. Waiting and waiting for a 5BW allocation, one of my 4BW spots became available. I'd been working on my brother to buy one to continue a little game we've played over life. He said he wasn't going to spend that much for a car, but he ended up taking my first 4BW spot. They let me slide back in line when my second 4BW spot became available, as I continued waiting for a 5BW. Eventually my brother talked me into taking a 4BW and I gave up my position in line for a 5BW. I almost never have anyone in the car with me and nobody's yet to sit in the back. Sounds like I ended up with the right car for me. Sure I'd love the extra power, but I prefer the lighter and more nimble feel. Did 4 track days last year and will probably do 7-8 this year. The V-Academy was my first time ever driving on a track and I'm hooked.

Regarding our little game, our first cars were a 71 Camaro and a 65 Mustang, but then I got a 79 Olds Cutlass Supreme and he got a 78 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Then I got a 91 Ford Taurus SHO and he got a 92 Ford Taurus SHO. Next he got a 1999 BMW M3 convertible and I got a 2001 BMW M5. Next we both got GMC 2500 Denali pickups and now we both have 4BW's. The BW's are the first cars and will be the only cars we ever bought new.

Damm, 13mpg on the road? I average about 24mpg. But then it's only about 5mpg on the track.

For about $2K with Tap Out Tuning you'll get the 4BW up to about 575hp.

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

1Evil55: I think MookdocOE really summed up the reaction of the terrible turning radius “like wtf” hahaha. I know it’s something that’s a 5-10 sec reaction and once the turn is done, you move on. But living and commuting in LA, the turning radius can really get annoying…especially if you have drivers that don’t have the patience to wait for me to do a double take u-turn lol. So, I’m kind of glad I didn’t get the 5BW…maybe a blessing in disguise. I agree with you that the 4BW would make faster lap times with tracks that have many turns; the 5BW would definitely make better lap times for tracks that have more straights.

Kawman: Seems to me that the 4BW was a blessing in disguise as for you as it was also for me. I was going to save a little more in terms of deposit to get the 5BW, but it was just too expensive, so I said nvm and decided to go with the 4BW, financially. Since I daily the 4BW, I really enjoy the nimbleness, especially whenever I take it to the canyons and hit the switchbacks…it’s a blast to toss around. The way I drive around the canyons already seems like I’m tracking it lol…but maybe I’ll take it to an actual track someday to really test its limits.

Nice collection of cars! Between all those cars, I can relate to the M3 convertible and M5. I also used to have an NSX (NA1), which I regret selling. Also had a Mazda Speed 3 back in the day, bought new, regretted doing that and regretted owning it completely…torque steer was absolutely terrible; glad I sold it hahaha. Like you, so the 4BW would be the 2nd new car that I’ve own.

Wow! $2k for an increase to 575hp. Do you know if that’s to the crank or to the wheels? What would the torque be with that kind of tune? I was thinking of getting the 4BW tuned; however, was thinking of getting it tuned by Schmidty Tuning.

Anyone here have experience with both tuners (Tap Out and Schmidty)? Would like people’s thoughts. If so, can you please share your experiences, power/torque output, and cost of parts/labor/tune.

 

[Kawman]

For $580 you get the JB4 device which is a simple plug in item. You down load an app and select which tune/output level you want. You only use the top level tune with E85 or at least 93 octane.
$350 get the Gigs throttle body, which is a stock part that has been reworked a bit.
$150 for their Green air filters
$70 for spark plugs that function better with the high boost now being produced
$1,200 for the carbon fiber airbox lid with larger MAF tubes - looks awesome

Maybe I got a little excited, probably more like 550hp at the crank with that package.

The average engine looses about 3% power for each 1,000 foot of elevation above sea level, so in Denver, CO an engine is making 15% less power than it's stated output. Our engine is computer controlled to make a certain power level. At 5K foot elevation the computer raises the boost to whatever is necessary to hit the 472hp target. The JB4 device fools the computer into thinking it hasn't hit the power target, so it increases the boost level. Whatever boost amount is needed to meet the 472hp target in Denver will make around 550hp at sea level.

15-20 minutes to remove the JB4 device before bringing the car to a dealer for service. The computer never knows it was making more than it's programed power output.

I'm no expert and am just repeating what I've read on-line, so if someone knows better, please share your knowledge.

 

[ngoni]

15-20 minutes to remove the JB4 device before bringing the car to a dealer for service. The computer never knows it was making more than it's programed power output.

Don't kid yourself that piggyback tunes are undetectable. The ECU records all sensor data that is outside of expected norms. If you come in with a drivetrain issue you can be sure they're going to look for signs of impossible acceleration compared to stock and other data that are dead giveaways. Manufacturers have been adding these things to catch tunes for over two decades.

 

[Finally-a-V]

With a due respect and a little sarcasm, really? The chief complaints are gas tank size and turning radius? Are we men or are we mice? It's probably one of the best cars to come out of Detroit. That's the complaint? That actually says something. No one complaining about expensive maintenance or repairs, no crazy electrical gremlins, no "I had to flat bed it to the dealer". I've never driven a C8 or C7, but it's way better than a C5/C6, and the stealth part is the best.

The 4 is a great car, but I felt it needs more power. Mine felt slow....for 472 hp. Awesome road ability, especially on mountain roads, but the 5 is no slouch.

The 5 is the sledge hammer. Illegal speeds in seconds. Insanely bonkers, but a car that can be very easy to drive and gets good gas mileage with self control on the go pedal. I picked up my wife from the airport the other week. Per the computer, 23-25 on the highway, cruise set at 80. Small tank? Other than a road trip, no big deal. Plan ahead for gas stops. Turning radius? Please. In parking lots, parking garages, it's not a big deal. Unless you're doing K turns. Plan ahead. And who turns around anyway? Watch that CF spoiler! I've driven many, many mountain roads in Arizona and California and the driving experience is awesome. I think better than the 4. I also know, the car's better than me. I trust the car. It's saved me once or twice.

I have NO regrets on buying my 5.....NONE! Most people have no clue. IYKYK....that should be my license plate. I laugh all day at the guys in/near my community who have Corvettes. Most are in their 60's and 70's and are clueless. They drive their Vettes like my grandfather. The BW flies under the radar all day and dusts those guys. "What was that? Oh, some crazy in a Cadillac." I have some "car guys" in my neighborhood and ask, "what is that"? I tell them, and I can tell they don't have a clue. "A cadiwhat"?, as they gloss over.

Just buy the 5 and don't look back!! Sorry for the rant.

 

[Kawman]

Don't kid yourself that piggyback tunes are undetectable. The ECU records all sensor data that is outside of expected norms. If you come in with a drivetrain issue you can be sure they're going to look for signs of impossible acceleration compared to stock and other data that are dead giveaways. Manufacturers have been adding these things to catch tunes for over two decades.

The JB4 device intercepts the signals from the sensors, alters them and sends the altered signals on to the ECU. Using the altered signals, the computer adjusts it's tuning, just as it does based on elevation and/or air temperature per it's factory programming. The ECU never receives a signal outside of it's normal operating ranges. Hammer up a highway entrance ramp and watch your factory boost gauge displaying about 12 psi, then go back home and review the data in the JB4 app on your phone, where you'll see the true date coming into the JB4 device from the sensors and you see you were actually making 18 psi boost. And the car's ECU never knows it happened. What is there to record?

I can't see rate of acceleration being a valid metric for analysis. A car with a JB4 device isn't going to accelerate any faster from 50 to 70 on level ground than a stock car could accelerate from 50 to 70 going downhill, right?

Isn't the technology in our cars were they have a built-in variable tune something that hasn't existed before?

 

[rubberduck]

1Evil55: I think MookdocOE really summed up the reaction of the terrible turning radius “like wtf” hahaha. I know it’s something that’s a 5-10 sec reaction and once the turn is done, you move on. But living and commuting in LA, the turning radius can really get annoying…especially if you have drivers that don’t have the patience to wait for me to do a double take u-turn lol.

I drove a full size extended cab GMC truck for 10 years in LA. I suppose it's different because people expect a truck is going to have some very different moves. But with a car they probably just think you're an idiot. I'm used to driving vehicles with long turning radii, so the 5BW doesn't give me a second of pause, ever.

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

For $580 you get the JB4 device which is a simple plug in item. You down load an app and select which tune/output level you want. You only use the top level tune with E85 or at least 93 octane.
$350 get the Gigs throttle body, which is a stock part that has been reworked a bit.
$150 for their Green air filters
$70 for spark plugs that function better with the high boost now being produced
$1,200 for the carbon fiber airbox lid with larger MAF tubes - looks awesome

Maybe I got a little excited, probably more like 550hp at the crank with that package.

The average engine looses about 3% power for each 1,000 foot of elevation above sea level, so in Denver, CO an engine is making 15% less power than it's stated output. Our engine is computer controlled to make a certain power level. At 5K foot elevation the computer raises the boost to whatever is necessary to hit the 472hp target. The JB4 device fools the computer into thinking it hasn't hit the power target, so it increases the boost level. Whatever boost amount is needed to meet the 472hp target in Denver will make around 550hp at sea level.

15-20 minutes to remove the JB4 device before bringing the car to a dealer for service. The computer never knows it was making more than it's programed power output.

I'm no expert and am just repeating what I've read on-line, so if someone knows better, please share your knowledge.

Wow! For $2k, that's some pretty good upgrades. From 472hp to 550hp is a fair upgrade. However, I heard a fairly cheaper way to increase hp is mod-ing the fuel system, installing a flex sensor, and tuning the ECU to run Ethanol...which would then make it possible to increase stock hp by 170hp. Wonder if anyone here has done a similar upgrade?

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

I drove a full size extended cab GMC truck for 10 years in LA. I suppose it's different because people expect a truck is going to have some very different moves. But with a car they probably just think you're an idiot. I'm used to driving vehicles with long turning radii, so the 5BW doesn't give me a second of pause, ever.

Agreed. I can picture myself being behind a 5BW and them not being able to make a u-turn when I just saw someone ahead of them that's driving a Chevy Suburban and being able to complete a simple u-turn. But I guess I'd understand coming from a BW driver lol. But, like you said, must people would think you're "an idiot" for not being able to make a u-turn driving a mid-sized sedan lol. Gotta walk the talk to talk the walk hahaha. According to those that chimed in saying that the turning radius between the 4BW and the 5BW is night and day...I'll just stick to my 4BW and get a tune and call it a day. I've decided that the 4BW is not a car to haul back passengers in...sucks, but sometimes the truth sucks. Maybe in the future and if I can afford it, I'll get the old CTS-V wagon if I really want to haul passengers in the back.

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

With a due respect and a little sarcasm, really? The chief complaints are gas tank size and turning radius? Are we men or are we mice? It's probably one of the best cars to come out of Detroit. That's the complaint? That actually says something. No one complaining about expensive maintenance or repairs, no crazy electrical gremlins, no "I had to flat bed it to the dealer". I've never driven a C8 or C7, but it's way better than a C5/C6, and the stealth part is the best.

The 4 is a great car, but I felt it needs more power. Mine felt slow....for 472 hp. Awesome road ability, especially on mountain roads, but the 5 is no slouch.

The 5 is the sledge hammer. Illegal speeds in seconds. Insanely bonkers, but a car that can be very easy to drive and gets good gas mileage with self control on the go pedal. I picked up my wife from the airport the other week. Per the computer, 23-25 on the highway, cruise set at 80. Small tank? Other than a road trip, no big deal. Plan ahead for gas stops. Turning radius? Please. In parking lots, parking garages, it's not a big deal. Unless you're doing K turns. Plan ahead. And who turns around anyway? Watch that CF spoiler! I've driven many, many mountain roads in Arizona and California and the driving experience is awesome. I think better than the 4. I also know, the car's better than me. I trust the car. It's saved me once or twice.

I have NO regrets on buying my 5.....NONE! Most people have no clue. IYKYK....that should be my license plate. I laugh all day at the guys in/near my community who have Corvettes. Most are in their 60's and 70's and are clueless. They drive their Vettes like my grandfather. The BW flies under the radar all day and dusts those guys. "What was that? Oh, some crazy in a Cadillac." I have some "car guys" in my neighborhood and ask, "what is that"? I tell them, and I can tell they don't have a clue. "A cadiwhat"?, as they gloss over.

Just buy the 5 and don't look back!! Sorry for the rant.

Hahaha! every car is going to have it's pros and cons. You're right though...chief complaints being gas tank size and turning radius. These are for people that daily drive their BW though...myself included. Yes, for the 4BW...it sucks only having roughly 17 gal and about 255 mi range. Since I daily my 4BW, things like turning radius and gas tank capacity matter. But setting that aside, it's a blast to drive around the canyons. I do agree with you that 472hp seems slow. I wish Cadillac would have just upped the torque to somewhere in the 500 lb-ft torque range...that would change the overall dynamics and fun factor of the car. In my opinion, I'd rather have the car feel faster, then it actually being faster lol. So, I can be happy with 400hp, but if the torque is around 500 lb-ft, I'm a happy camper.

The thing though, which I find perplexing is how the different drive modes in the BWs can create an the effect that it's actually going faster. Could anyone here explain why when in V-Mode (depending on how you configure it), why it feels slower compared to sport or touring mode? Even when PTM is at it's lowest setting on V-Mode, it still "feels" slower compared to sport or touring mode. Why is that? It's a trip hahaha. I honestly hate how modern cars have so many modes for this and that. I guess I'm biased since I like and prefer analog cars like the 1st gen NSX (NA1)...with no power steering and no driving modes. Before obtaining the 4BW, I came from a 1st gen NSW, so I'm used to the complete rawness driving experience. I'm not a fan of software when it comes to cars, but given that modern cars will rely on software...can't do too much about that. But yeah, would anyone here explain why V-Mode actually feels slower than when in Sport or Touring Mode. Since I find that V-Mode feels slow, my preference is driving in Sport Mode where I get a good balance of power response and "torqueness" feeling compared to V-Mode. Thoughts?

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

The JB4 device intercepts the signals from the sensors, alters them and sends the altered signals on to the ECU. Using the altered signals, the computer adjusts it's tuning, just as it does based on elevation and/or air temperature per it's factory programming. The ECU never receives a signal outside of it's normal operating ranges. Hammer up a highway entrance ramp and watch your factory boost gauge displaying about 12 psi, then go back home and review the data in the JB4 app on your phone, where you'll see the true date coming into the JB4 device from the sensors and you see you were actually making 18 psi boost. And the car's ECU never knows it happened. What is there to record?

I can't see rate of acceleration being a valid metric for analysis. A car with a JB4 device isn't going to accelerate any faster from 50 to 70 on level ground than a stock car could accelerate from 50 to 70 going downhill, right?

Isn't the technology in our cars were they have a built-in variable tune something that hasn't existed before?

That's the thing with our modern BW's...so much software and overthinking of our ECU is involved that it creates a misreading between 12 psi and 18 psi. I can't imagine how the BW would have been if it was created around the 90s. Back then, it was so much easier to manipulate the ECU on what you want it to do; nowadays, it can often times be complex and complicated that you get codes shooting at you left and right.

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

Don't kid yourself that piggyback tunes are undetectable. The ECU records all sensor data that is outside of expected norms. If you come in with a drivetrain issue you can be sure they're going to look for signs of impossible acceleration compared to stock and other data that are dead giveaways. Manufacturers have been adding these things to catch tunes for over two decades.

Something I've noticed over the yrs is that manufactures back in the day cared less, but focused on quality of their cars. However, nowadays, manufactures care and record date, while compromising the quality of their cars. It's crazy how back then it used to be the quality of cars and now it's the quantity of cars. Cars back in the 90's and early to mid 2000's where so easy to tune. Cars after 2010...that's were it has become so much harder to tune a car.

 

[themodern6spdsedan]

Don't kid yourself that piggyback tunes are undetectable. The ECU records all sensor data that is outside of expected norms. If you come in with a drivetrain issue you can be sure they're going to look for signs of impossible acceleration compared to stock and other data that are dead giveaways. Manufacturers have been adding these things to catch tunes for over two decades.

By the way, if your user pic is your car...I've also liked that color for the BW and your BW is sexy. I've seen a few in that color (mainly driving on the freeway) and like the shiny and deep red color...it's sexy. I'm not a color kind of guy (mainly stick to Grey, Black, or White), but that Cadillac red on the BW is low key sexy.

 

[ngoni]

By the way, if your user pic is your car...I've also liked that color for the BW and your BW is sexy. I've seen a few in that color (mainly driving on the freeway) and like the shiny and deep red color...it's sexy. I'm not a color kind of guy (mainly stick to Grey, Black, or White), but that Cadillac red on the BW is low key sexy.

Radiant Red is the correct color. 4 out of 5 doctors agree.