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C&D compare BW5/RS7/M5

The issue with these vehicles is always the same. Someone builds a high performance trim of a car and the price ends up 2x to 3x that of the base model. Which doesn't change the fact that you started from a cheaper car to begin with. So you always end up with an interior that fells a bit cheap even if you option things like full leather packages, etc. A BMW 5 series base price is 20K more than a CT5 so it's going to have a better interior at every trim level. As someone already mentioned, if the interior quality was more equivalent then the CT5 would be more like a 45-50k car base.
 
That’s a good explanation, but I think many already paying over $100k for a sedan would pay up for an outright BMW beater. To me, that’s the real point of this thread. No more compromises for the Cadillac brand.
 
That’s a good explanation, but I think many already paying over $100k for a sedan would pay up for an outright BMW beater. To me, that’s the real point of this thread. No more compromises for the Cadillac brand.
I'll take the other side of this. I think for badge reasons they would have a hard time selling the blackwing if it were the same price as an m5 competition or rs7, even if the interior were improved and it was better in every way.

Except the tranny, that would sell cars.
 
I would like to add that M5 doesn't cost as much as you think. In pre-covid times it was easy to get 5-8% off MSRP plus incentives on top of that. In addition, BMW inflates their residuals on their leases along with providing a cheap MF. If there were no car shortages right now, you could get a 115k M5 Comp on lease for less than a 100K BW...like hundreds less per month.
 
I'll take the other side of this. I think for badge reasons they would have a hard time selling the blackwing if it were the same price as an m5 competition or rs7, even if the interior were improved and it was better in every way.

Except the tranny, that would sell cars.
That’s a self fulfilling prophecy though. If they don’t ever try to step up, they never will. They are winning on tranny, weight (huge accomplishment), and fun. Interior is not complicated to solve. They even solved the engine before keeping the name and ditching it for the Chevy bin to save $.
 
I don't buy this narrative that the base price would be $30k-40K more if Caddy put in better material in the interior. How much more would it cost per car to just have better plastics on the doors? Or soft touch material. How can cars that cost half (or even less) can do that? Look at Asian imports for example. Sure they do not have the power of BWs on their premium trims interior quality is a lot better.
 
I don't buy this narrative that the base price would be $30k-40K more if Caddy put in better material in the interior. How much more would it cost per car to just have better plastics on the doors? Or soft touch material. How can cars that cost half (or even less) can do that? Look at Asian imports for example. Sure they do not have the power of BWs on their premium trims interior quality is a lot better.

It wouldn't be 30-40k. BMW does it and the difference is only 20k at most for the entire car in regards to the 5 series. I think a 5-8k price bump in the base model CT4 and CT5 would give a nice increase to interior quality across all trim levels. That would put the CT5 to around a 41-45k car.
 
I don't buy this narrative that the base price would be $30k-40K more if Caddy put in better material in the interior. How much more would it cost per car to just have better plastics on the doors? Or soft touch material. How can cars that cost half (or even less) can do that? Look at Asian imports for example. Sure they do not have the power of BWs on their premium trims interior quality is a lot better.
Materials themselves certainly wouldn't be 30-40k, but setting up supply chains etc for a small volume vehicle could end up costing that much per car I would think, but I'm just guessing.

They could potentially mitigate the volume issue by offering a high end interior trim level on the CT5 for those that care about that sort of thing but don't care about performance.
 
FWIW....I was out on BMW's website. Spec'd a M5, not a competition. Price point was just under my 5BW. Based on BMW and Cadillac's websites, I can lease a M5 for less than a 5BW (based on MRSP, no ADM). Either thousands less down and same payment, or same dollars down and $100-125 less a month. Seems kinda tempting. Oh, and if you want to "get by" with a M550i xdrive, good lord is that stupid cheap to lease. Of course, you have to find any of them.
 
FWIW....I was out on BMW's website. Spec'd a M5, not a competition. Price point was just under my 5BW. Based on BMW and Cadillac's websites, I can lease a M5 for less than a 5BW (based on MRSP, no ADM). Either thousands less down and same payment, or same dollars down and $100-125 less a month. Seems kinda tempting. Oh, and if you want to "get by" with a M550i xdrive, good lord is that stupid cheap to lease. Of course, you have to find any of them.

Price difference is a lot more than that and it carries over to the 4BW vs the M3 as well.

Current residual on a M5 lease is 59% on a 36/10k with a .001 MF. The CT5 BW is 52%(IIRC) with a .002 MF. A 115K M5 costs less to lease than a 100K 5BW.

Current residual on a M3 lease is 57% on a 36/10k with a .001 MF. The CT4 BW is 51%(I know this for certain) with a .002 MF. A 77K M3 costs the same to lease as a 63k 4BW.

But what cars can you actually get? Both the BW models are pretty hard to get right now and will probably have a price adjustment. The M3 is hard to get right now but there are some for sale here and there. The M5 is not hard to get right now but it'll be probably be a heavily optioned one. The M550i is easy to get right now and you could buy one at MSRP in 30min.

I'm willing to guess though that not many people on this forum are leasing their BW.
 
Producing a CT5 Blackwing without the Blackwing motor was the most GM thing that GM has done in a long time. Obviously the real engine cost (warranty, parts, techs, etc.) was much more than meets the eye. And it's inconsistent with their strategic shift towards electric. But damn it.
 
Producing a CT5 Blackwing without the Blackwing motor was the most GM thing that GM has done in a long time. Obviously the real engine cost (warranty, parts, techs, etc.) was much more than meets the eye. And it's inconsistent with their strategic shift towards electric. But damn it.
Given ICE is going away, I'm MUCH happier with the tried and true higher output LT4 that has a ton of aftermarket support vs. the Blackwing motor which was new and unproven and for which there will be no large (any?) aftermarket tuning support. (Although it's starting to look like the aftermarket is going away with manufacturers encrypting the vehicle network for anti-hacking purposes and local and state governments going after tuning, aftermarket exhausts, etc..) I was driving into Kirkland, WA about a week ago and they had a flashing sign at the city line telling you the amount they're going to charge you for a modified exhaust!! With the Peoples Republic of California now going after tuned ECUs and the move to EVs I think the traditional aftermarket is living on borrowed time...
 
Given ICE is going away, I'm MUCH happier with the tried and true higher output LT4 that has a ton of aftermarket support vs. the Blackwing motor which was new and unproven and for which there will be no large (any?) aftermarket tuning support. (Although it's starting to look like the aftermarket is going away with manufacturers encrypting the vehicle network for anti-hacking purposes and local and state governments going after tuning, aftermarket exhausts, etc..) I was driving into Kirkland, WA about a week ago and they had a flashing sign at the city line telling you the amount they're going to charge you for a modified exhaust!! With the Peoples Republic of California now going after tuned ECUs and the move to EVs I think the traditional aftermarket is living on borrowed time...

GREAT thoughts, I totally agree. You can see on youtube that tuners have been blocked out of tuning the Blackwing. It's exactly what you say. I assume much like smog testing did, there will be a grandfathered era of later model vehicles that will become the next wave of classic hot rods. From there on the tuners will have to get creative. For example, you can still trick mechanical sensors like MAF sensors by varying the manifold diameter. Of course, the electrification of automobiles will blow out the tuner industry eventually regardless.
 
Price difference is a lot more than that and it carries over to the 4BW vs the M3 as well.

Current residual on a M5 lease is 59% on a 36/10k with a .001 MF. The CT5 BW is 52%(IIRC) with a .002 MF. A 115K M5 costs less to lease than a 100K 5BW.

Current residual on a M3 lease is 57% on a 36/10k with a .001 MF. The CT4 BW is 51%(I know this for certain) with a .002 MF. A 77K M3 costs the same to lease as a 63k 4BW.

But what cars can you actually get? Both the BW models are pretty hard to get right now and will probably have a price adjustment. The M3 is hard to get right now but there are some for sale here and there. The M5 is not hard to get right now but it'll be probably be a heavily optioned one. The M550i is easy to get right now and you could buy one at MSRP in 30min.

I'm willing to guess though that not many people on this forum are leasing their BW.
Exactly what I'm saying, thank you! So maybe I should look at an M5? Or a bargain priced M550i? IDK, this whole thing is really getting frustrating.
 
GREAT thoughts, I totally agree. You can see on youtube that tuners have been blocked out of tuning the Blackwing. It's exactly what you say. I assume much like smog testing did, there will be a grandfathered era of later model vehicles that will become the next wave of classic hot rods. From there on the tuners will have to get creative. For example, you can still trick mechanical sensors like MAF sensors by varying the manifold diameter. Of course, the electrification of automobiles will blow out the tuner industry eventually regardless.

Nothing that one has physical access to is uncrackable. Give the tuners a little time.
 
Exactly what I'm saying, thank you! So maybe I should look at an M5? Or a bargain priced M550i? IDK, this whole thing is really getting frustrating.
After 4 months on the so called "waitlist" I was getting tired of waiting for an allocation for a 5 BW so I placed an order for an M5 Comp back in late July. According to Autotrader, there are currently about 50 new M5s available throughout the US. Of those, 17 are listed as "call for price" which to me might as well say "ADM." 8 are M5 CS and I would all but guarantee those are already sold. My M5C order has been delayed 8 weeks past its original production week so far. It's supposed to begin production any day now (week 45) but I'm not holding my breath.

The sales director at my BMW store told me they have 4 people with paid deposits on M5s after mine with no allocations. I'm glad I ordered when I did as I'm one of the lucky ones that actually has a production number. They also have 100 cars of their inbound inventory presold plus 45 deposits that they don't have vehicles for yet. They had a high spec M550i on the lot for about a week or two and I just checked and it's gone.

The bottom line is, finding anything is going to be a challenge right now. If I'm spending this much on a car I want it optioned exactly how I want it. For those that read the C/D comparo, my M5 spec was just over 20k more than the BW I ordered. Both have top spec interiors and CCBs. The BMW has a upgraded Bowers and Wilkins sound system (one of the reasons for the continued delays I'm told) but they're pretty similar. Only mentioning it because the prices aren't as far apart as C/D would have you believe.

Good luck whatever you decide! The BW is still my first choice but I'm intrigued by the M5. I haven't owned a German car since my old GTI in the 80s.
 
So let me see if I get this right do ya'll hate the BW or not? I mean there are other brands so go get one of those.. Bottom line here is, whatever car you decide on just like @SIX 40 said its going to be a wait.....I can tell you this tho, the BW is very fun to drive and worth the wait even with the "crappy" interior.... Forgive me, I have has a real shitty day!
 
So let me see if I get this right do ya'll hate the BW or not? I mean there are other brands so go get one of those.. Bottom line here is, whatever car you decide on just like @SIX 40 said its going to be a wait.....I can tell you this tho, the BW is very fun to drive and worth the wait even with the "crappy" interior.... Forgive me, I have has a real shitty day!
The Goatfather has spoken !!! LOL
 
So let me see if I get this right do ya'll hate the BW or not? I mean there are other brands so go get one of those.. Bottom line here is, whatever car you decide on just like @SIX 40 said its going to be a wait.....I can tell you this tho, the BW is very fun to drive and worth the wait even with the "crappy" interior.... Forgive me, I have has a real shitty day!
Yes, I really do like the BW....hence why I ordered one. I think the interior (sight unseen) is beautiful. Sometimes I think these car mag guys MUST find something negative to say. Like the CUE system. It wasn't that bad. Yes, a little weird, but not as bad as they all said. Say it with me...goat rodeo!
 

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