2025 CT4V Blackwing?

[Throat Yogurt]

I'd trade my 5 in for a 4 with a V8 in a second. I'd be on the list at 20 dealers the day they announced it

You forgot to remind us to like and subscribe.

 

[jbawden]

Isn't a NA V8 sedan what the SS is/was? I don't think it would do anything to move the needle. LT1/2 is similar power and more weight, so it's not going to improve chassis dynamics. I think for the power mod crowd, the turbo motor wins hands down.

 

[99sport]

Isn't a NA V8 sedan what the SS is/was? I don't think it would do anything to move the needle. LT1/2 is similar power and more weight, so it's not going to improve chassis dynamics. I think for the power mod crowd, the turbo motor wins hands down.

We'll see how the Charger sells when they replace the hemi V8 with a turbo straight 6 (and straight 6 >> than V6) - my guess is hellcat buyers won't be interested - the same way I'm not interested in an EV - no matter how fast they are.

My first car was a V8 and my second. Since then I've had straight 4s, 6, 3, and 5. If I was going to spend big money I wanted a V8. My mom's Camry is a V6. Maybe it's irrational, but I don’t care. Car purchases aren't rational or we'd all be driving a Prius or minivan.

The 4BW engine makes more power than I want, but I find the sound unpleasant. The 5's sound makes me feel like I'm going to have an accident in my pants (the good kind). I'm paying for an experience, and the V6, while plenty fast, doesn't deliver the experience I want.

Clearly the 4 does deliver the experience many of you want, but the fact that the 5 is priced 50% higher than the 4, and that it has seen $13k in price increases since launch and still sells quickly, while the 4 gets discounted to get them to sell, suggests GM missed the mark somehow with the 4 - and its absolutely not the driving dynamics or price they got wrong.

I love the 4. I think it's a better car than the 5, but the difference in sales demand is telling

(My guess is the MBA types forbid the V8 in the 4 because it would have canabalized the higher profit 5 sales - which is 100% true)

 

[jbawden]

I'm all about V8's and had a V-sport before my SS, so hear you (pun intended) on V-6 vs V-8, but I'm just saying to the broader audience the SS wasn't a smashing sales success and a $65k-$75k V8 4BW would be a more compact/less useful, refreshed SS that was already panned for being too expensive at $50k. There is a lot of competition at that price point and holding the lack of a V8 accountable for the middling sales is over simplifying the issue. I for one wouldn't have looked twice at a V-8 4 over the 5.

We really need to stop comparing the 4 and the 5, they are wildly different machines with difference target market, sense of purpose, and personalities.

 

[ST Expat]

Hi all - long-time lurker and first time poster!

Just purchased my 24 CT4VBW at the end of 2023 in part out of fear that the model would be killed off at some point this year (and that, any official announcement made by Cadillac would lead to a run on the existing inventory and/or the return of the dreaded ADM).

One thing that could be notable for the fate of the CT4 is that Cadillac was/is running some pretty sweet (but very surprising) incentives on the 4BW. I got $3k off MSRP and a pretty favorable interest rate - this incentive isn’t advertised on the Cadillac corporate website but you’ll find it advertised at the dealer level.

Maybe overthinking, but I thought it could’ve been a low key way for Cadillac to thin inventory before killing the platform. I didn’t expect Cadillac to run incentives on one of their halo cars (I imagine they never would on the 5BW) and the incentives were better than on the regular CT4!

Do you mind sharing what the rate options were? I had a deal fall through late last year and am still in the market.

 

[dinkman]

I'd trade my 5 in for a 4 with a V8 in a second. I'd be on the list at 20 dealers the day they announced it

same!

 

[slowshift]

Do you mind sharing what the rate options were? I had a deal fall through late last year and am still in the market.

Sure! At the time, I believe it was as low as 0.9% for a 36 month term, and stepped up as the term extended (I think a 60 month was at 3.9%). Also looks like there’s a Costco membership $1k discount, so potentially $4k off MSRP if you can combine the offers

 

[Throat Yogurt]

We'll see how the Charger sells when they replace the hemi V8 with a turbo straight 6 (and straight 6 >> than V6) - my guess is hellcat buyers won't be interested - the same way I'm not interested in an EV - no matter how fast they are.

My first car was a V8 and my second. Since then I've had straight 4s, 6, 3, and 5. If I was going to spend big money I wanted a V8. My mom's Camry is a V6. Maybe it's irrational, but I don’t care. Car purchases aren't rational or we'd all be driving a Prius or minivan.

The 4BW engine makes more power than I want, but I find the sound unpleasant. The 5's sound makes me feel like I'm going to have an accident in my pants (the good kind). I'm paying for an experience, and the V6, while plenty fast, doesn't deliver the experience I want.

Clearly the 4 does deliver the experience many of you want, but the fact that the 5 is priced 50% higher than the 4, and that it has seen $13k in price increases since launch and still sells quickly, while the 4 gets discounted to get them to sell, suggests GM missed the mark somehow with the 4 - and its absolutely not the driving dynamics or price they got wrong.

I love the 4. I think it's a better car than the 5, but the difference in sales demand is telling

(My guess is the MBA types forbid the V8 in the 4 because it would have canabalized the higher profit 5 sales - which is 100% true)

It has been well established by the Blackwing engineers why the 4 has a V6 not a V8, and it wasn't the "MBA types" that made the decision.

I suspect the difference between demand for the 4 and 5 is more related to their competition. At ~$65-80k, there are a lot of 6-cylinder sports cars with 400-500 HP vying for your dollar that offer similar performance to the 4BW. M2, M3, Supra, RS3, Z, etc. are all in that region. Everyone has their own opinion, but I would argue that the 4BW sounds better than any of its competitors.

At $100-120k, there are very few 4-door competitors to the 5BW with 650+ HP, and none with a manual. The BW really stands alone in that class, and offers a much different driving experience from the M5. So the 5BW is ultimately a more special car, driving higer demand versus production numbers.

Even with the discounts on the 4, I would bet that the 4 has sold in higher numbers than the 5 overall. Off to the registry to see if I'm right...

 

[MookdocOE]

I'm all about V8's and had a V-sport before my SS, so hear you (pun intended) on V-6 vs V-8, but I'm just saying to the broader audience the SS wasn't a smashing sales success and a $65k-$75k V8 4BW would be a more compact/less useful, refreshed SS that was already panned for being too expensive at $50k. There is a lot of competition at that price point and holding the lack of a V8 accountable for the middling sales is over simplifying the issue. I for one wouldn't have looked twice at a V-8 4 over the 5.

We really need to stop comparing the 4 and the 5, they are wildly different machines with difference target market, sense of purpose, and personalities.

Your correct! Interesting enough I had little intention of getting a 4 BW Now after owning my 5 BW I am crushing on wanting a 4 BW 6m......obviously, wife wouldn't be cool with that though?

 

[MookdocOE]

It has been well established by the Blackwing engineers why the 4 has a V6 not a V8, and it wasn't the "MBA types" that made the decision.

I suspect the difference between demand for the 4 and 5 is more related to their competition. At ~$65-80k, there are a lot of 6-cylinder sports cars with 400-500 HP vying for your dollar that offer similar performance to the 4BW. M2, M3, Supra, RS3, Z, etc. are all in that region. Everyone has their own opinion, but I would argue that the 4BW sounds better than any of its competitors.

At $100-120k, there are very few 4-door competitors to the 5BW with 650+ HP, and none with a manual. The BW really stands alone in that class, and offers a much different driving experience from the M5. So the 5BW is ultimately a more special car, driving higer demand versus production numbers.

Even with the discounts on the 4, I would bet that the 4 has sold in higher numbers than the 5 overall. Off to the registry to see if I'm right...

Agreed, the 4 sounds good and really good for a V6

 

[99sport]

It has been well established by the Blackwing engineers why the 4 has a V6 not a V8, and it wasn't the "MBA types" that made the decision.

Yeah, we've heard the "it earned it's place" and the V8 wont fit. And it's better for weight distribution. (But is a 4 cam, twin turbo V6 really any lighter than an NA pushrod V8?) And I'm sure when the Blackwing team had to turn the 4 into the BW the die was already cast and a V8 was never going to fit.

However, when the ATS was turned into the CT4, they could have easily left room for the V8. The product planners gave the engineers a list of requirements and in my imagination the exchange went like this:

Management to engineer: "here is your design specification for the CT4:
1. Production cost at 10,000 vehicles / year shall be $20k/vehicle
2. NRE budget is 50 cents (so don't change too much from the ATS or you'll never hit your budget)
3. Don't make the back seats big enough to fit adults or no one will pay more for the CT5 (we product planners call that "differentiation")
4. Performance targets X, Y, Z
5. Must fit LFA engine
6. Base CT4s must use 2 liter 4 cylinder truck motor
etc."

Engineer to management: "I'm not sure a 4 cylinder truck motor is the right fit for a Cadillac. You know, the Camaro and the ATS share all their hardpoints. If we put the Camaro engine bay on this thing, we could fit all the V8 engines GM has spent billions of dollars designing and building factories to produce. Unlike 4cyl truck motors, the V8s are awesome - people love them - I mean people get tattoos of GM small blocks - not so much with 4cyl truck motors. Offer the 4 cylinder as the base motor, but the V8 as an upgrade. (Remember what Iacocca did in 1964?) All those young people that bought a Camaro (or Mustang) and have kids and need 4 doors for their next vehicle, they could step up from a Camaro/Mustang to a CT4 with a V8 instead of buying one of those $55,000 SUVs that sell like gangbusters. Sure, it would be smaller than an SUV, but the V8 would be a huge differentiator in this sigment and lots of people that would have bought an SUV would buy the CT4 just to get the V8. And don't worry about the CAFE impact - buyers will totally pay more to cover the CAFE penalties - look at what Dodge is doing - their CAFE rating has to be 12 mpg - they put the HEMI in everything. And the GM pushrod smallblock is like half the size of the humongous HEMI. Plus we could do a V series version and it would be...."

Management to engineer: "Cadillac is a premium product. Cadillac customers expect a 4 cam motor. Why do you think we spent $50M designing that 4 cam, hot V, twin-turbo blackwing motor? Oh wait, nevermind... Your job is to execute the design specification given to you by the product planners. If you want to be a product planner, go get an MBA like me. I don't want to hear anymore about this. Understood?"

Engineer to management: "Yes, sir."

 

[99sport]

I'm all about V8's and had a V-sport before my SS, so hear you (pun intended) on V-6 vs V-8, but I'm just saying to the broader audience the SS wasn't a smashing sales success and a $65k-$75k V8 4BW would be a more compact/less useful, refreshed SS that was already panned for being too expensive at $50k.

I'm not sure the SS is the right comparison. It wasn't marketed at all. And Car and Driver even said GM didn't WANT to sell many because it would hurt their CAFE numbers (unlike the Germans that just pay the civil CAFE penalties because they realize (or realized) premium products CANNOT have a 4cyl).

Very interesting story below. The only reason it was imprted at all was to keep the factory running to get subsidies from Melbourne to keep Austrailian auto worker jobs. All orders were sold orders and there was zero marketing. Because all orders were sold orders, it was impossible to get a test drive. I bet over 95% of people would never consider buying a car without a test drive. I know folks one this forum did just that, but I drove 4 Blackwings before forking over my cash.

The fact that you can test drive a used car before buying it (but not one made in Australia that takes months to arrive) might have something to do with the fact that I see ten year old used SSs with 80,000 miles on used car sites with asking prices ABOVE the original MSRP.

https://dailykanban.com/2013/11/25/why-gm-isnt-trying-to-sell-the-chevy-ss-and-why-it-matters/

 

[Matt27]

I'm not sure the SS is the right comparison. It wasn't marketed at all. And Car and Driver even said GM didn't WANT to sell many because it would hurt their CAFE numbers (unlike the Germans that just pay the civil CAFE penalties because they realize (or realized) premium products CANNOT have a 4cyl).

Very interesting story below. The only reason it was imprted at all was to keep the factory running to get subsidies from Melbourne to keep Austrailian auto worker jobs. All orders were sold orders and there was zero marketing. Because all orders were sold orders, it was impossible to get a test drive. I bet over 95% of people would never consider buying a car without a test drive. I know folks one this forum did just that, but I drove 4 Blackwings before forking over my cash.

The fact that you can test drive a used car before buying it (but not one made in Australia that takes months to arrive) might have something to do with the fact that I see ten year old used SSs with 80,000 miles on used car sites with asking prices ABOVE the original MSRP.

https://dailykanban.com/2013/11/25/why-gm-isnt-trying-to-sell-the-chevy-ss-and-why-it-matters/

The Germans are all 4 cyl now though, across the board. Even in something as big as the 5 series/E class.

 

[99sport]

The Germans are all 4 cyl now though, across the board. Even in something as big as the 5 series/E class.

I know - it defies all comprehension. I'm not a German car buyer, but it sounds to me like they lost their way. I expect someone like Tesla (or whoever the next Tesla is) to eat their lunch.

They don't put diesels in S classes anymore like they used to in the 1980s. The current crop of luxury brands with 4 cyl engines is temporary reaction to changing legislation, just like S class Diesels were. 4 cylinders dont belong in luxury cars. Just like Diesels belong in trucks not luxury cars

 

[raptor5244]

Yeah, we've heard the "it earned it's place" and the V8 wont fit. And it's better for weight distribution. (But is a 4 cam, twin turbo V6 really any lighter than an NA pushrod V8?) And I'm sure when the Blackwing team had to turn the 4 into the BW the die was already cast and a V8 was never going to fit.

However, when the ATS was turned into the CT4, they could have easily left room for the V8. The product planners gave the engineers a list of requirements and in my imagination the exchange went like this:

Management to engineer: "here is your design specification for the CT4:
1. Production cost at 10,000 vehicles / year shall be $20k/vehicle
2. NRE budget is 50 cents (so don't change too much from the ATS or you'll never hit your budget)
3. Don't make the back seats big enough to fit adults or no one will pay more for the CT5 (we product planners call that "differentiation")
4. Performance targets X, Y, Z
5. Must fit LFA engine
6. Base CT4s must use 2 liter 4 cylinder truck motor
etc."

Engineer to management: "I'm not sure a 4 cylinder truck motor is the right fit for a Cadillac. You know, the Camaro and the ATS share all their hardpoints. If we put the Camaro engine bay on this thing, we could fit all the V8 engines GM has spent billions of dollars designing and building factories to produce. Unlike 4cyl truck motors, the V8s are awesome - people love them - I mean people get tattoos of GM small blocks - not so much with 4cyl truck motors. Offer the 4 cylinder as the base motor, but the V8 as an upgrade. (Remember what Iacocca did in 1964?) All those young people that bought a Camaro (or Mustang) and have kids and need 4 doors for their next vehicle, they could step up from a Camaro/Mustang to a CT4 with a V8 instead of buying one of those $55,000 SUVs that sell like gangbusters. Sure, it would be smaller than an SUV, but the V8 would be a huge differentiator in this sigment and lots of people that would have bought an SUV would buy the CT4 just to get the V8. And don't worry about the CAFE impact - buyers will totally pay more to cover the CAFE penalties - look at what Dodge is doing - their CAFE rating has to be 12 mpg - they put the HEMI in everything. And the GM pushrod smallblock is like half the size of the humongous HEMI. Plus we could do a V series version and it would be...."

Management to engineer: "Cadillac is a premium product. Cadillac customers expect a 4 cam motor. Why do you think we spent $50M designing that 4 cam, hot V, twin-turbo blackwing motor? Oh wait, nevermind... Your job is to execute the design specification given to you by the product planners. If you want to be a product planner, go get an MBA like me. I don't want to hear anymore about this. Understood?"

Engineer to management: "Yes, sir."

Agreed. While the LF4 V6 is very good and has grown on me I still prefer the V8 sound track and natural aspiration over the turbos. Every time this topic comes up I link to this segment from Jason Cammisa, which is spot on with what you are saying.

Starting at 17:05 if it doesn't link you directly to the video segment.

 

[Super Saloon]

The Germans are all 4 cyl now though, across the board. Even in something as big as the 5 series/E class.

This isn’t really accurate. M2, M3, M4 are all in-line 6. RS3 is a 5. RS5 is a 6. RS6, RS7 are V8, as is an M5. E63 AMG is also a V8. The CLA 45 AMG and briefly the C 63 AMG were 4 cyl. Most of the German brands that compete with the Blackwing 4 or 5 are actually not a 4 cyl.

If you are speaking about base models only being 4, then the same can be said for just about every manufacturer.

 

[Matt27]

This isn’t really accurate. M2, M3, M4 are all in-line 6. RS3 is a 5. RS5 is a 6. RS6, RS7 are V8, as is an M5. E63 AMG is also a V8. The CLA 45 AMG and briefly the C 63 AMG were 4 cyl. Most of the German brands that compete with the Blackwing 4 or 5 are actually not a 4 cyl.

If you are speaking about base models only being 4, then the same can be said for just about every manufacturer.

If you read the post I was actually responding to, it's talking about the "truck engined" base car and all of its German competitors too.

 

[Throat Yogurt]

Yeah, we've heard the "it earned it's place" and the V8 wont fit. And it's better for weight distribution. (But is a 4 cam, twin turbo V6 really any lighter than an NA pushrod V8?) And I'm sure when the Blackwing team had to turn the 4 into the BW the die was already cast and a V8 was never going to fit.

However, when the ATS was turned into the CT4, they could have easily left room for the V8. The product planners gave the engineers a list of requirements and in my imagination the exchange went like this:

Management to engineer: "here is your design specification for the CT4:
1. Production cost at 10,000 vehicles / year shall be $20k/vehicle
2. NRE budget is 50 cents (so don't change too much from the ATS or you'll never hit your budget)
3. Don't make the back seats big enough to fit adults or no one will pay more for the CT5 (we product planners call that "differentiation")
4. Performance targets X, Y, Z
5. Must fit LFA engine
6. Base CT4s must use 2 liter 4 cylinder truck motor
etc."

Engineer to management: "I'm not sure a 4 cylinder truck motor is the right fit for a Cadillac. You know, the Camaro and the ATS share all their hardpoints. If we put the Camaro engine bay on this thing, we could fit all the V8 engines GM has spent billions of dollars designing and building factories to produce. Unlike 4cyl truck motors, the V8s are awesome - people love them - I mean people get tattoos of GM small blocks - not so much with 4cyl truck motors. Offer the 4 cylinder as the base motor, but the V8 as an upgrade. (Remember what Iacocca did in 1964?) All those young people that bought a Camaro (or Mustang) and have kids and need 4 doors for their next vehicle, they could step up from a Camaro/Mustang to a CT4 with a V8 instead of buying one of those $55,000 SUVs that sell like gangbusters. Sure, it would be smaller than an SUV, but the V8 would be a huge differentiator in this sigment and lots of people that would have bought an SUV would buy the CT4 just to get the V8. And don't worry about the CAFE impact - buyers will totally pay more to cover the CAFE penalties - look at what Dodge is doing - their CAFE rating has to be 12 mpg - they put the HEMI in everything. And the GM pushrod smallblock is like half the size of the humongous HEMI. Plus we could do a V series version and it would be...."

Management to engineer: "Cadillac is a premium product. Cadillac customers expect a 4 cam motor. Why do you think we spent $50M designing that 4 cam, hot V, twin-turbo blackwing motor? Oh wait, nevermind... Your job is to execute the design specification given to you by the product planners. If you want to be a product planner, go get an MBA like me. I don't want to hear anymore about this. Understood?"

Engineer to management: "Yes, sir."

We get it. You know more than the engineers, and also everyone else. The people who actually know the decision process have said what you imagined above isn't true.

But the kids love a good story, right?

My imaginary story is that it is impossible to think that the 5BW exhaust note is JIMP while simultaneously believing the 4BW is "unpleasant" (your word). I think you're being dishonest.

Have you actually driven one? With the windows down? Have you actually heard the exhaust sound in person? In all the exhaust modes? I don't think you have. Here's a hint: it doesn't sound anything at all like your mom's Camry, and the fact that you even mention a Camry on the same website as this car shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

The LF4 a great engine for the car. I love its flexibility. I love that is has huge torque just off idle. I love that the throttle mapping gets *slower* in track mode for better control rather than faster like in every other phony racer wannabe car. I love that it's tunable if someday I get tired of the power. I love that it can get decent mileage when I use cruise control at reasonable speeds.

 

[99sport]

We get it. You know more than the engineers, and also everyone else.

Don't take this personally. I never made any personal attacks at you. Your opinion is valid and so is mine. They are just that - opinions.

And it's better for weight distribution. (But is a 4 cam, twin turbo V6 really any lighter than an NA pushrod V8?)

My point still stands. The GM engineers claimed the V6 is better than the V8 for weight distribution. Of course they know what they are saying. But I'm guessing it's better for weight distribution becasue its axial length is less - which puts less weight in front of the front axle line, vs a V8 which is longer and has more of it's weight out front. In my mind, 4 cams made of steel instead of 1, plus 2 turbos made of cast iron, an intercooler, plus intercooler piping, plus maybe coolant and a coolant pump for the intercooler (not sure if the 4 has these, but the 5 does) seems like a lot of extra crap that probably adds up to about the same weigt as an NA V8. Sure the weight is farther back, but is it ligher? I'd love to know.

Have you actually driven one?

I've driven several 4s - in auto and stick. In fact, I did the Spring Mountain class in a 5 and then again in a 4 a few weeks apart (instructor asked "weren't you just here"). As I stated several times in this (and other threads) I love the 4. I think it is the better car. It is a much better fit for my size preference. The gearing and power is more usable on the street. They both have more power than I want. I encourage everyone (and have on this forum) considering a 5, to test drive a 4 before buying - you may fall in love with the 4 - it's fantastic. However, at the end of the day, after multiple test drives in both, I wasn't going to buy a twin turbo V6. As I stated above, this may very well be irrational, but that is how I feel. I suspect there are others who agree (like the Youtube commenters you seem to hate).

Clearly we disagree, and that's ok. If no one posted their opinions in this forum, there'd be very little here to read. If reading my opinion makes you upset, I suggest you avail yourself of the ignore function - that's what it is there for.

 

[Roadhawk]

I'm happy with the V6 in the 4 BW...performs very well and sounds good (though i wish it were a bit louder/more growl).

Would I have rather had the small block...maybe...emotionally sure...but if in fact the weight - while perhaps being about the same - is less forward - if this improves handling over the V8 - well - they probably made the right choice (and I'm happy for that). Besides its certainly tunable for more oomph and more easily than if it was normally aspirated.

I loved my Audi S4....but my that weight over the front was certainly a drawback (that AWD somewhat saved it...but not at/over the limit - where it wanted to plow). After some spirited driving in the 4 BW I can greatly see the benefit of the balanced chassis and how - even without AWD - it inspires great confidence in high speed cornering that I think would be compromised by more weight forward the front axle. So maybe this is a big reason why the turbo 6 over the 8. Of course I've also heard that since its a Cadillac unique engine vs the Chevy small black that this was the determining factor.