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A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
Monday night, the Fairest Sandra The Red, Duchess of Goleta and I went out for dinner to celebrate our Anniversary. We picked the "Beachside Cafe" a popular casual dining spot, right on the ocean, next to the Goleta Pier and just south of the UCSB campus. A friend of the family was staying with us and we asked him to join us.

We all piled into the ATS-V. Going to the "Beachside" requires a short run on the freeway so I hopped on US101 south. Since the car now has just a hair over 1000 miles on it. from about a 15-mph roll, I buried the throttle. The 8-spd kicked down and, even with three people in the car, our Bimmer Buster (my Wife has taken to calling the car "Pearl") liking the sea level elevation and cool air, took off like a freakin' rocketship. With the "FRLU" (female rev limiter unit) in the passenger seat and passing slower traffic like they were parked, I lifted at 85-mph.

This Saturday is a shop day and I'm going to change the oil and filter for the first time. We're going to pass on the free Dexos synthetic blend and put Driven Racing Oil LS30 5W30 full-synthetic engine oil in the engine. While LS30 is not Dexos-licensed, it exceeds the standards Dexos sets for volatility, shear stability, high-temperature/high-shear (HTHS), anti-foam and ZDDP. Joe Gibbs Racing, which blends and markets the Driven oil brand chooses not to license the oil as "Dexos approved" because of GM's obscenely-expensive licensing fees. Interestingly, the "Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association" has filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) over GM's Dexos licensing claiming it represents "restraint of trade". You can bet lawyers from both sides are going to rake in some cash on that fight.

I'll also screw on a fresh ACDelco PF63E oil filter which I sourced from Rockauto.com. In addition, I'll take a close look at everything under the car and if I see anything amiss, which I do not expect, I'll run the car into Bunnin Chevrolet/Cadillac for warranty work.

My Wife leaves tomorrow for a 20-day trip with her girlfriend to the southeast to take in the Cup races at Charlotte and Taladega, tour some NASCAR shops, along with some aquatic-life adventures in Florida and she's leaving me in charge of "Pearl, the Bimmer Buster". While she's on the road, during the next week, I have to go visit my Mom in Henderson, Nevada, then drive on to Phoenix to do a photo session for a Corvette magazine.

What better way to finish the ATS-V's "break-in" than to take it on a run to Phoenix via Henderson and then back to Goleta.

I told my Wife her new baby needs to have its break-in period completed by a "professional" who's familiar with correct break-in procedures.:chuckle:
 
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Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
Yesterday, in the process of a search of the Owner's Manual to find out how to reset the oil life monitor, I found a list of available parameters for display on the DIC. I also found the instructions on how to configure the DIC. It's not easy, but if you read carefully and follow the instructions exactly, eventually you'll get to where you can put oil pressure and oil temperature on the IP below the gauges. I also found a boost parameter and the fuel economy readouts.

Yea!:biggrin:

On the downside, there is no digital parameter for engine coolant temperature (ECT) so your stick with the ATS-V's crappy, temperature gauge which has no graduations. The only way you can find out the actually coolant temp is with a scan tester. Come on Cadillac! This is supposed to be a "driver's car" and "driver's cars" have temperature gauges with freakin' numbers on them!

We settled on "Pearl the Bimmer Buster" for a name.

I got the car into the shop yesterday morning and did the first oil change. It took a long time because I had to figure out how to jack the car and put in on jack stands. The Service Manual was not a big help because the drawings in the information are for a standard ATS not an ATS-V and the V's chassis at the jacking points is not exactly as what's shown in the drawings.

Jacking the car such that you can support the front with jackstands is difficult. First you need a 2-ft-x 6-in piece of padded plywood on the jack pad because the front crossmember is aluminum. Then you need some wooden blocks to use as jackstand pads. I positioned them to support a boxed and part of the underbody, just behind each front wheel. I jack the right side of the car an inch or so higher to facilitate a full drain.

Access to the oil drain plug and the filter is a bit restricted due to what looks like a stiffening device used on the chassis of the V-series ATS. My advice is to remove the filter first. Unscrew it so it begins to leak. Sit there a while and let it drain down then take it off. You have to stash a paper towel just on the inside lip of the chassis to catch any drips that end up on the crossmember. After you have the filter off, then pull the drain plug.

First thing I noted is the factory fill drain oil is the weirdest looking stuff. It's this ugly green color–almost as if the engine was filled with the really old type of coolant mix which was green. I'm going to have a sample analyzed to see what kind of oil it actually is, but I'm going to name it "Martian blood" because of the green color.

After you replace the drain plug, then you can "partially" prefill the filter with a ¼-qt oil, lube the filter seal with grease and screw it on. Because of the restricted access, I had to do something I have never done until now, and that's tighten the filter with a filter wrench. Tighten only 3/4-to-a full turn.

The filter on the engine was a PF63 which was just recently superseded to the PF63E, which is what I ordered from Rockauto.com and put on the engine.

The engine takes 7-qt with the filter or about 6.5-qt without the filter.

I decided to pass on a Dexos-licensed oil and use Gibbs Driven LS30 which, though it's not Dexos-Licensed, exceeds the Dexos specifications for volatility, shear stability, HTHS, anti-foam and ZDDP.

I've been watching oil temperature on the DIC and, based on what I see so far, anyone who's going to drive the engine in a sporting manner in warm weather ought to use a true synthetic, not a blend. If there is a full-synthetic Dexos, I suppose that's ok. Mobil 1 is good. Best would be a premium dexos-licensed synthetic or an oil like Driven LS30 which meets the Dexos specifications and is intended for use in high-performance engines.

So with some additional info about temperature and pressure on the DIC and Gibbs Driven LS30 in the engine, it was time for a little more "testing". While it's been very hot during the day here in Goleta CA–last two days it's been right about 100°F which is very rare considering we are ½-mile from the ocean. The late evenings are much cooler because it's early Fall. We're at sea level and the air was good last night because of a 74°F OAT, so I took the car out on a freeway on ramp and hammered it from a 5-mph roll and stayed on it to the top of 3rd gear. Wow. The car is a freakin' rocket. Later at a stop light I had some kid in a slammed and "tuned" Nissan Maxima tried to race me. No contest, obviously.

This afternoon, I changed the rear drive axle lubricant to another Gibbs Driven product, their 75W110 gear lube for open diff axles. What was interesting was what came out of the RDA. I don't know what is factory-fill for axles in ATS-Vs, but the stuff had so much fine metal in it, that it had turned gray. I know that ring-and-pinion gearsets wear quite a bit during break-in, but I was surprised at how cloudy the fluid was after only 1132 miles. I was, also, surprised to see a few unidentified, tiny black flecks of "stuff" come out of the axle with the drain oil. I'm going to have a sample analyzed just to see if anything is amiss or that ugly gray tinge is normal.

The Wife is on the road until the 27th. I am going to have so much fun with her car, however, I think I'll wait until we get 3000 miles on it and then take it to a chassis dyno to see what it makes.

In the meantime, I'm going to hook up my laptop with EFI Live's Scan app running and see if, in cool weather, the engine gets any knock retard on 91-oct gas. I want to do that because GM calibrates for 93-oct. and I might need just a little touch of 100-unleaded to get a clean acceleration run.:rocker:
 
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~tc~

Seasoned Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
49
Location
Houston, TX
What oil temps are you getting?

I would think you would want a gear oil with the limited slip additive. I've always been a fan of Redline, especially the "shockproof" versions.
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
What oil temps are you getting?

210°F during easy driving on a hot day. Also 210°F during some short duration WOT accel in 4th gear on a cool night. If I was tracking the car doing repeated laps, I'd see a lot more.

I would think you would want a gear oil with the limited slip additive. I've always been a fan of Redline, especially the "shockproof" versions.

Red Line Shockproof is a great product. When I was associated with Red Line–before the comapny was sold to Spectrum Corp and subsequently sold to Conoco/Phillips–and worked with its former Chief Chemist, Roy Howell, I tested a lot of the Shockproof series in high-performance street applications, but I'm using this car to test some of the Gibbs Driven lubricants.

Also, remember...the ATS-V does not have a "limited slip" in the sense most people understand the term. The drive axle has an open diff, however, there is an external, electronically-controlled, hydraulically-actuated, wet clutch between the two axle shafts. GM calls this an "electronic limited slip" or "eLSD" and ATS-V uses hardware similar to that used on C7 Vette Z51s and Z06es along with the new generation CTS-V. This clutch can be anything from all-slip (open) to no-slip (locked) and any limited-slip step in between. The eLSD uses ATF and has a separate fluid system not connected to the drive axle assembly.
 
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Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
Oh yeah...I was out having some fun on the highway tonight, logging engine controls data and doing some 15-mph rolling starts then going WOT to just before the rev. limiter in fourth gear. Again, the car is a freakin' rocket.

I was reading some stuff on another forum about an aftermarket company which chassis-dynoed an ATS-V auto with 600 miles on it. The engine made an astonishing 436-hp at the wheels which is way over 500 at the flexplate.

Tonight on the three accel. test runs I made, I was taking data and noted some interersting engine controls behavior.

First, the commanded lambda, even during a long period of WOT in 4th gear, is .90, which, in "my book" is pretty lean. I usually calibrate for .86 or so in PE. I haven't got my wideband installed yet, but based on other GM engines I've calibrated, indicated lambda usually follows the commanded lambda unless something else in the cal is FUBAR. Secondly, I'm saw 29-psi boost in that fourth gear acceleration to just before the limiter which seems like a hell of a lot of boost considering Cadillac PR releases say the LF4 makes 18.

If that engine makes 29-psi boost, that explains the 500+ horsepower that guy saw on the dyno.
 

nbtx

New Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
3
Location
south TX
Rock the DIC

Well, first off I have to eat some crow.

For those of you who've read all the posts here, previously, I've criticized the car's IP for poor instrumentation. Well, yesterday, in the process of a search of the Owner's Manual to find out how to re set the oil life monitor, I found a list of available parameters for display on the DIC. I also found the instructions on how to configure the DIC. It's not easy, but if you read carefully and follow the instructions exactly, eventually you'll get to where you can put oil pressure and oil temperature on the IP below the gauges. I also found a boost parameter and the fuel economy readouts.

Yea!:biggrin:
I just knew you'd find them - congrats ...

Glenn
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
I just knew you'd find them - congrats ...

Glenn

What I haven't been able to find as a parameter choice for the DIC displays are:
engine coolant temperature
trans mission temperature.

Have you found them?
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
Tonight I write the "Little V-Blog" from Henderson, Nevada, 20 or so miles southeast of Las Vegas. I'm in Henderson visiting family.

To get to Henderson, Nevada from Goleta, California, via the "scenic route", takes me over a secondary highway, California State Route 138, from the junction of that highway and Interstate 5, which is just south of Gorman California, to the junction of SR 138 and SR 14 which is between Lancaster and Rosemond on SR 14.

During the run across 138 between I-5 and SR14 on level ground, I was seeing 24.6-miles-per-gallon.

Oh, yeah...that's at a cruising speed of 90-mph.

So, not only is the ATS-V 8-speed auto very quick 0-60 and in the quarter, it's a pretty damn nice touring car at modestly-high speeds, too.

And for those who are interested in my drive route it's: From Goleta, US 101 South, to CA SR126 East, to Interstate 5 north, to SR138 east, to SR14 North, to SR 58 East, to I-15 North, to Nevada SR 146 East, to I-215 East, to Lake Mead Parkway.

I guess I'm going to have to give "Pearl the Bimmer Buster" a good bath when I get back home. Apparently, on the 90-mph run across 138, a substantial amount of the indigenous insect population of the eastern California high-desert gave their lives to my test program. The last thing they saw was the big Cadillac badge on the front grille, then SPLAT.

So what kinda whining can I do, well, I hate the electric parking brake. I think it can be unsafe in certain situations–fore example: if the car battery is very low or dead, the parking brake is inoperable. The Owner's manual says to use wheel chocks. WTF! This is another example of engineers with no "street smarts" and marketing guys having wet dreams together–probably the same two guys who came up with push-button start systems. Bottom-line: there ain't gonna be any handbrake turns with an ATS-V.

Obviously Cadillac uses the same seat belt assemblies with both the standard and the Recaro seats. Problem is, the lower section of the Recaros (where your butt goes) have high sides and that has the seat belt buckles stuck down between the seat and the center console walls. It's really a pain-in-the-butt (pun intended) to fasten the seat belts with the buckle way down "in a hole". Caddy should have had specific seat belt assemblies for the Recaros which would position the buckle a couple of inches higher. Come on guys! This is a car costing 70-80 large and you can't afford seat belts that work easily?

As for CUE...I'm still learning how to use it, but my knee-jerk reaction, after having two weeks worth of seat time in two different C7 Corvettes, is that Chevrolet has done a better with their system in Vettes (which mixes touch screen input with knobs for volume, on-off and radio tuning) than has Cadillac with its all-touch-screen CUE system.

And lastly, some QC bitches...
1) At 70-mph and above, I can hear/feel a subdued "buzz" coming from below and behind me. Not exactly sure what the problem is, but my gut feeling is the prop shaft between the trans and drive axle may be slightly out of balance.
2) My engine seems to have the "cold turbo rattle" problem discussed in a TSB GM issued for the LF4 in early September. Haven't decided if I'm going to risk letting dealer technicians tear the engine down far enough to replace the original turbos with the updated turbos listed in the Bulletin or not.

Yeah, this ATS-V has a few weaknesses, but over all, the car rocks!:rocker:
 
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Tuna

Seasoned Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
800
Location
Mustang, OK
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
'11 V Wagon, ( '13 427 Vette & '14 ATS)
Epb

My CTS V has the electric parking brake - never thought about doing a "hand brake" turn so that's not an issue.
The EPB can be used to keep the car on a hill and not worry about rolling backward between releasing the brakes and getting the clutch out - it automatically releases when the clutch is released. That's come in handy a few times. Then again my V is a stick shift. Probably not an issue with the auto tranny.

My manual says that battery power is required to set and release the EPB. Sounds like once set, if the battery dies, the EPB is still set and will not release.
It does mention using chocks on the rear tires if EPB is not functioning. That would mean knowing the battery is already dead or the EPB isn't working and needs to see the dealer. I'll have to remember that if I every park the car on a hill with a dead battery.

Question for you: Is the cold turbo rattle a real problem or just noise that doesn't hurt anything?
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
My CTS V has the electric parking brake - never thought about doing a "hand brake" turn so that's not an issue.
The EPB can be used to keep the car on a hill and not worry about rolling backward between releasing the brakes and getting the clutch out - it automatically releases when the clutch is released. That's come in handy a few times. Then again my V is a stick shift. Probably not an issue with the auto tranny.

My comment about hand brake turns was in ghest. What I don't like about the eP-brake is all the flexibility of a manual P-brake is not available. When you're moving the car around the shop, you can't actuate the PB unless you have the fob get in the car and turn it on. You can't "modulate" the setting. Moving the finger switch is an unnatural act for most drivers. Lastely, who NEEDS an eP-brake? No one. That decision was made by geeky engineering and a marketing minion. Makes the car more expensive and, as the car gets high-mileage, more expensive to service.

My manual says that battery power is required to set and release the EPB. Sounds like once set, if the battery dies, the EPB is still set and will not release.

As I understand it, if the battery is very low or dead, you cannot change the state of the eP-brake except by attempting to drive the car forward which, I understand will release the brake.

It does mention using chocks on the rear tires if EPB is not functioning. That would mean knowing the battery is already dead or the EPB isn't working and needs to see the dealer. I'll have to remember that if I every park the car on a hill with a dead battery.

To me, in the 21st century, it's absolutely asinine that there is any condition a car could be in where you have to roll it around with a set of chocks in one hand. I'm going to have to leave a set of chocks in the trunk. It's techo-geekery run amok. Like pushbutton start, a feature which has already killed several elderly people around the U.S. Admittedly, PB start is not restricted to just GM vehicles.

In another dumb-assed decision, there is no way to read battery voltage unless you turn on the ign. and select battery voltage for display on the DIC or....measure the voltage with a DMM.

Question for you: Is the cold turbo rattle a real problem or just noise that doesn't hurt anything?

Good question, the answer to which, at least right now, is unknown to me. I'm attempting to find out and the answer to that question will play into my decision on having it fixed or not. My guess is the rattle is just an annoyance but I'm really not sure. I'm also not sure, yet, how to find out the answer, but I'm researching. I will add that, the rattle is pretty noticeable under certain conditions and, with my engine, it does not occur only when the engine is cold. It's louder then the engine is warming up, but the noise is present most of the time when the engine is not on boost...I think it's actually when the waste gates are full open.

Today....it's back to Goleta from Henderson, through thunderstorms in southern Nevada and far southeastern California, and then over the stretch of I-5 which was closed after the huge rainstorm then reopened last night.
 

~tc~

Seasoned Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
49
Location
Houston, TX
While I agree with you about the parking brake, I completely disagree about push button start, which has become a "must have" for me.
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
(snip), I completely disagree about push button start, which has become a "must have" for me.

And, no doubt, there are many who share your feelings. I realize I'm in a minority with my dislike of pushbutton start, but I'll take key switches any day!

I think a lot of old people who are also not "car people" would feel the same way. I also think the families of the people who've died of CO poisoning because they get out of cars, don't hear the engines, and leave them running in the garage long enough to fill the whole house with fatal levels of CO, would also not care for them much.
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
Made the run back to Goleta from Henderson NV. All the stormy weather was, for the most part, gone.

It was a nice day for a drive across the desert.

I was cruising along at about 78 when a Toyota Corolla blew by me at about 90. Me must have been a 3/4 throttle for crissakes. I decided to let him be the rabbit and I'd tag along at the same speed about an ⅛-mile back watching my Valentine. It was like a double-redundant, anti-CHP device. He was running so fast and didn't have a radar warning, so the CHP would get him first and, with my Valentine going off, I'd get slowed in more than enough time.

It was interesting passing in and out of the fast lane with the rest of traffic moving at 80.

Got "Pearl the BMW Buster" up to 130 for a brief period. While I can feel a little vibration somewhere at 75-85, above that, it's smooth and quiet at that speed in 8th gear.
 
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Tuna

Seasoned Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
800
Location
Mustang, OK
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
'11 V Wagon, ( '13 427 Vette & '14 ATS)
I wonder if the cold turbo rattle is just a waste gate rattle.
Is this an issue with the V-Sport / Vsport cars as well or just the ATS V?

All three of my cars are keyless. Guess we've gotten accustomed to them and expect them. The 2011 V has a twist start knob like it had a key in it but the key is not required. The ATS and Corvette are true push buttons.
I've changed the batteries in the FOBs at the first hint that the range is reducing and I make sure each car gets a new battery every 3 years.
So far, so good.

I got to thinking about handbrake turns and remembered that the last time I did that was with a VW Beetle modified with left and right hand brake handles back in the '70s. That came in real handy with playing off road in the mud in Louisiana. Don't do that off road stuff any more.

I also haven't done much car repair work in a very long time and can't appreciate any issues that may occur due to lack of a manual "hand or foot" brake.

Live Long and Prosper!

:wave:
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
I wonder if the cold turbo rattle is just a waste gate rattle.
Is this an issue with the V-Sport / Vsport cars as well or just the ATS V?

It affects ATS-V and CTS-V Sport, i.e.: the LF3 and LF4 engines.

(snip)Live Long and Prosper!

:wave:

Well...I'll take the prosper part. As for living long...that's ok as long as I'm still there mentally. If I'm sitting in a wheel chair, drooling, while trying to remember my name, shoot me.
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
So...I was poking around under the hood and around the front end during a little inspection after my trip over to Henderson.

I got to thinking about the charge air cooler radiators which are down low, one on each side of the front end. They are positioned such that, at high speed, they'll pick up lots of weeds, bugs and road trash. If they get clogged with insect guts and other stuff, I wonder how you clean them?

Oh and I guess most of the "break-in period" is done with my LF4. In the first 1000 miles it burned ½-qt oil. In the second 1000 miles it used no oil.
 

Tuna

Seasoned Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
800
Location
Mustang, OK
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
'11 V Wagon, ( '13 427 Vette & '14 ATS)
Well...I'll take the prosper part. As for living long...that's ok as long as I'm still there mentally. If I'm sitting in a wheel chair, drooling, while trying to remember my name, shoot me.

I'm with you there and my wife knows where my guns are.

Great news on oil consumption also. Have you figured out how to clean the intercooler radiators yet?
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
221
Location
CenCoast CA
V-Series Cadillac(s)?
2016 ATS-V Sedan, 2016 ATS-V Coupe
I'm with you there and my wife knows where my guns are.

Mine, too.

Great news on oil consumption also. Have you figured out how to clean the intercooler radiators yet?

Yep. Had a look at that situation last night. If you turn the front wheels to full lock, when the tire is turned all the way in, you can see a grating which is the charge air cooler radiator exhaust outlet. I haven't done it yet, but I suspect that either shop air pressure or even a garden hose stream through that grating will "blow" backwards though the radiator and force dirt, insects and other stuff out the front of the radiator.

Also, I had a short email exchange with the Communications representative at GM Powertrain, Tom Read. After logging data from my engine and never seeing more than 15-psi boost and reading on other forums that people have run on chassis dynos and had only 15-psi, I asked him about the claim of 18-psi boost in some GMPT news releases.

He stated:
The compressors are capable of 18 psi of boost pressure, but this is not necessarily observed under standard operating conditions and by the instrument panel. The boost pressure can vary based on barometric pressure and ambient temperature. It's also important to note that the reported delta pressure on the DIC is reduced by the pressure drop across the intercooler and throttle body.
 
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~tc~

Seasoned Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
49
Location
Houston, TX
And, no doubt, there are many who share your feelings. I realize I'm in a minority with my dislike of pushbutton start, but I'll take key switches any day!

I think a lot of old people who are also not "car people" would feel the same way. I also think the families of the people who've died of CO poisoning because they get out of cars, don't hear the engines, and leave them running in the garage long enough to fill the whole house with fatal levels of CO, would also not care for them much.

If one can forget to push the button, one can forget to turn the key ... I wonder how many cases of that never made the news... Frankly, I wonder if people who can't remember to turn the car off need to be driving in the first place ...
 

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