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  1. #286
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    It's no wonder it took so long to diagnose!
    So this is a 2016 issue only?
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  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevito View Post
    Just think of all the time wasted in your life over this stupid problem. Cadillac likely saved $1.00 per engine for this crappy engineering. Glad the US does not make satellites and space stations this way. Why you spend your money on these crooks is beyond me. I do not think I will ever spend another penny on a crappy GM car.
    Well...I guess maybe I'm just not as pissed off as you are about GM. Yes, it's been frustrating to deal with and, yes, Cadillac ATS-Vs lack quality, but there is nothing else on the market that gives me what the ATS-V does. Sure, there are other powerful compact coupes and sedans available from Mercedes, BMW and Alfa Romeo but all of those have various downsides such as reliability, costly maintenance or questionable long-term dealer support. With the ATS-V I have a car which really suits my needs/wants as far as a very high-performance compact coupe. I get maintenance for reasonable (ie: non-warranty) cost and I don't have to worry about a brand like Alfa disappearing from the U.S. market.

    BTW, back to my oil thread. You know that 100% synthetic and fully synthetic are totally different things. Fully synthetic use grade III base oils and 100% synthetic use grade IV.
    In short, Grade III base stocks are synthesized hydrocarbons aka highly-refined petroleum base.

    Mobil 1 is only fully synthetic.
    The the higher volume M1 engine oils sold in N.A. use a Grade III base stock.

    The fact that GM uses Mobil 1 as factory fill means nothing more than it is saving a few pennies on the price of the oil.
    Actually, they're saving a lot more than a "few pennies."Exxon-Mobil pays a large sum to GM to market M1 engine oils as factory-filled by GM.

    You can buy Euro Grade Synthetic oils and get ester based base stock. You can also get Polyolefin base stock.

    You don't have to buy "Euro Grade" synthetics. Engine oils made from Grade IV and V base stocks are blended right here in the U.S. buy Driven Racing Oil (mPAO base stocks) and Red Line Oil.(ester base stocks)


    These are much better than the grade III stock you get in fully synthetic such as Mobil 1.
    I agree.

    You need to do an article on fully synthetic vs 100% synthetic. Seems 100% synthetic would be better with turbos due to the hot spots during shutdown. Fully synthetic would be of no help here. Why not just save your money and buy quality dino oil rather than waste it on fully synthetic which uses dino base oils.
    I did a whole bunch of writing about engine oils back in the mid-'00s. Maybe it's time to revisit the subject.
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 06-13-2019 at 05:19 PM.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuna View Post
    It's no wonder it took so long to diagnose!
    I think GM was stumped back when the first engine had to be replaced, but I think they knew there was a problem by the time I began complaining about the second cold-start-smoke problem. Because of that, I was kinda pissed that they made me jump though all the same hoops....sending them a shit-load of video footage and waiting for months...before agreeing to replace the engine in the Coupe.

    So this is a 2016 issue only?
    That's the best information I have so far, however, my Coupe was a late '16, so my personal opinion is that some '17s might also have the problem.

    I think anyone with a '16 or an early '17 who has these symptoms:

    1) Oil smoke within a few seconds after a cold start which occurs after at least 24-hrs of non-use.
    2) The smoke will last five seconds or more then stops with no more smoke until the next cold start
    3) An oil use test shows low oil consumption over the period of the test
    4) The length of time the engine smokes is somewhat related to how long the car sits between cycles, ie: a car which sits for a week smokes a lot more than a car which sits over night.
    5) Two front spark plugs show oil residue.
    6) In a borescope inspection, the bore walls in the two front cylinders show scoring and/or scuffing.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    Well...I guess maybe I'm just not as pissed off as you are about GM. Yes, it's been frustrating to deal with and, yes, Cadillac ATS-Vs lack quality, but there is nothing else on the market that gives me what the ATS-V does. Sure, there are other powerful compact coupes and sedans available from Mercedes, BMW and Alfa Romeo but all of those have various downsides such as reliability, costly maintenance or questionable long-term dealer support. With the ATS-V I have a car which really suits my needs/wants as far as a very high-performance compact coupe. I get maintenance for reasonable (ie: non-warranty) cost and I don't have to worry about a brand like Alfa disappearing from the U.S. market.



    In short, Grade III base stocks are synthesized hydrocarbons aka highly-refined petroleum base.



    The the higher volume M1 engine oils sold in N.A. use a Grade III base stock.



    Actually, they're saving a lot more than a "few pennies."Exxon-Mobil pays a large sum to GM to market M1 engine oils as factory-filled by GM.


    You don't have to buy "Euro Grade" synthetics. Engine oils made from Grade IV and V base stocks are blended right here in the U.S. buy Driven Racing Oil (mPAO base stocks) and Red Line Oil.(ester base stocks)




    I agree.



    I did a whole bunch of writing about engine oils back in the mid-'00s. Maybe it's time to revisit the subject.
    Would like to see you do a new review on synthetic oils. I do searches on the top oils in the US and they will NEVER quote their base stocks as grade III or IV. So much marketing bullshit. Pennzoil says their oil is made from natural gas. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN??? Grade IV???

    BTW, when it comes to Cadillac I take a lot of your input with a grain of salt since your wife works for Bunnin. You bought your cars with a discount and your service is special. Back when you used to do Corvette custom parts reviews, you got free parts. It was easy to see through that bullshit. I do not think you are into that anymore. Likely because the parts folks can no longer afford to give away free stuff.

    Anyway, I am now going with Pennzoil synthetic Euro L grade for my wife's BMW oil changes. Bought on the internet. I THINK it is has grade IV base stock but at least I know it is made with natural gas (WOW and WHOOPIE). That just means it is extra refined. Still dino oil.

    I would LOVE to see you ditch GM and get a REAL car for a change. GM takes you guys for chumps. Carry on....

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevito View Post
    Would like to see you do a new review on synthetic oils. I do searches on the top oils in the US and they will NEVER quote their base stocks as grade III or IV. So much marketing bullshit. Pennzoil says their oil is made from natural gas. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN??? Grade IV???
    I with you on that...what is it with the natural gas thing. I can only guess that Royal Dutch Shell, which owns the Penzoil brand, is using natural gas as the start of that product. As whether it's a group III or group IV base stock...I have no idea.

    BTW, when it comes to Cadillac I take a lot of your input with a grain of salt since your wife works for Bunnin. You bought your cars with a discount and your service is special. Back when you used to do Corvette custom parts reviews, you got free parts. It was easy to see through that bullshit. I do not think you are into that anymore. Likely because the parts folks can no longer afford to give away free stuff.
    It is true that we got an employee discount price on both those ATS-Vs but then...GM periodically offers the employee discount price to everyone during sales incentive promotions. Yes, I get a discount on service work, but that's not amounted to much as, with the two Cadillacs, most of the expensive stuff has been under warranty. Some of the normal maintenance I do myself rather than using Cadillac's "free" maintenance. I still do a lot of product review writing for the Corvette Action Center and some of what I write is about products which are supplied by vendors which want to see their products reviewed by journalists rather than social media "influencers". Sometimes these products are supplied at no cost and sometimes they are not. I don't get paid by the CAC for writing and photographing the review articles.

    Anyway, I am now going with Pennzoil synthetic Euro L grade for my wife's BMW oil changes. Bought on the internet. I THINK it is has grade IV base stock but at least I know it is made with natural gas (WOW and WHOOPIE). That just means it is extra refined. Still dino oil.
    This "question" comes down to who is defining "synthetic". If you're a marketing guy, then synthesized hydrocarbon base stocks are "synthetic". If you are a chemist, synthesized hydrocarbon base stocks are highly-refined petroleum.

    I would LOVE to see you ditch GM and get a REAL car for a change. GM takes you guys for chumps. Carry on....
    If I was to decided to buy a "REAL car", what should I consider?
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 07-27-2019 at 11:55 AM.
    Hib Halverson
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  6. #291
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    Default "Real" cars,

    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    I with you on that...what is it with the natural gas thing. I can only guess that Royal Dutch Shell, which owns the Penzoil brand, is using natural gas as the start of that product. As whether it's a group III or group IV base stock...I have no idea.



    It is true that we got an employee discount price on both those ATS-Vs but then...GM periodically offers the employee discount price to everyone during sales incentive promotions. Yes, I get a discount on service work, but that's not amounted to much as, with the two Cadillacs, most of the expensive stuff has been under warranty. Some of the normal maintenance I do myself rather than using Cadillac's "free" maintenance. I still do a lot of product review writing for the Corvette Action Center and some of what I write is about products which are supplied by vendors which want to see their products reviewed by journalists rather than social media "influencers". Sometimes these products are supplied at no cost. I don't get paid by the CAC for writing and photographing the review articles.



    This "question" comes down to who is defining "synthetic". If you're a marketing guy, then synthesized hydrocarbon base stocks are "synthetic". If you are a chemist, synthesized hydrocarbon base stocks are highly-refined petroleum.



    If I was to decided to buy a "REAL car", what should I consider?
    A real car would be a Japanese performance car such as the 2020 Supra 2020 Toyota Supra

    Nissan 370Z or GT-R. 2020 Nissan 370Z Coupe Sports Car | Nissan USA or Discover the 2019 Nissan GT-R | Nissan USA

    Also Land Rover, hybrid SUV: Range Rover Sport. Range Rover Sport Plug-In Hybrid – PHEV SUV – Land Rover

    Nothing with a GM badge. Notice there is not even a Chevy bow tie on the Chevy Corvette?

    Notice no BMWs, MBs or Porsches. These cars are reliability and repair nightmares.

    Take care. I enjoy reading your posts.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevito View Post
    A real car would be a Japanese performance car such as the 2020 Supra 2020 Toyota Supra


    Nissan 370Z or GT-R. 2020 Nissan 370Z Coupe Sports Car | Nissan USA or Discover the 2019 Nissan GT-R | Nissan USA

    Why would I want any of those?
    A Corvette can run circles around around the Supra and the Z. As for the GT-R, which is a fairly good sports coupe, but I'm not gonna get passed.


    Also Land Rover, hybrid SUV: Range Rover Sport. Range Rover Sport Plug-In Hybrid – PHEV SUV – Land Rover
    I'm just not in the market for any SUV, hybrid or otherwise.
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 06-15-2019 at 09:52 AM.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post


    Nissan 370Z or GT-R. 2020 Nissan 370Z Coupe Sports Car | Nissan USA or Discover the 2019 Nissan GT-R | Nissan USA

    Why would I want any of those?
    A Corvette can run circles around around the Supra and the Z. As for the GT-R, which is a fairly good sports coupe, but I'm not gonna get passed.




    I'm just not in the market for any SUV, hybrid or otherwise.

    At least the cars I mentioned are reliable and you won't spend your time in a dealership that is always trying to oversell repairs. Also at a certain level, you grow out of always trying to be the fastest. I went from that with my 79 Trans Am to trying to have the biggest house and the biggest bank account and the happiest kids. Now I am trying to fund my grandkids' college.

    Another oil/filter question that you could write about at a later time. I am convinced that the oil filter bypass valve opens much more often than people suspect. Like at every cold start and as the engine suddenly revs up. It is partially the result of smaller oil filters that are restrictive. Seems manufacturers do not specify this valve opening pressure. They likely know that circulating unfiltered oil through the engine is not a big deal if you maintain oil change intervals. Thoughts?

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevito View Post
    At least the cars I mentioned are reliable and you won't spend your time in a dealership that is always trying to oversell repairs.
    How did you get reliability data for those cars? I find it hard to get that kind of info, other than the JD Power studies which do not break down the data by model.

    Also at a certain level, you grow out of always trying to be the fastest.
    I'm not gown up yet.

    I went from that with my 79 Trans Am to trying to have the biggest house and the biggest bank account and the happiest kids. Now I am trying to fund my grandkids' college.
    I don't have grandkids and my Stepson is out of college. My neighbor's kids are the closest I have to grandkids and I've been helping put two of them through Christian middle school.

    Another oil/filter question that you could write about at a later time. I am convinced that the oil filter bypass valve opens much more often than people suspect. Like at every cold start and as the engine suddenly revs up. It is partially the result of smaller oil filters that are restrictive. Seems manufacturers do not specify this valve opening pressure. They likely know that circulating unfiltered oil through the engine is not a big deal if you maintain oil change intervals. Thoughts?
    You're spot-on with you comment about oil filters. Bypass valves are not discrete devices. They do not just suddenly pop full open at a given pressure. I'm not sure how oil filter manufacturers define valve opening but I've always assumed the number given is the point at which the valve is fully open. My feeling is one should change the filter a lot sooner than you change the oil because as soon as the bypass opens just a little bit, there is some volume of oil which does not get filtered. My feeling is that any unfiltered oil can be a bad thing, so I change filters at half the drain interval or a third of it if the engine is on an extended drain interval.

  10. #295
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    I finally have the imagery from the diagnostic session on the engine in my '16 Coupe which was done three weeks ago at Bunning Cadillac. Keep in mind that HFV6es uses a cylinder numbering system that is different from most other GM engines. The driver side bank is "Bank 2" which is cylinders 2, 4 and 6. The passenger side is "Bank 1" which is cylinders 1, 3 and 5.

    The new engine is on order.


    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-01-jpg
    The cat inlet from Bank 1.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-02-jpg
    Bank 1 turbo outlet cavity.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-03-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-04-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-05-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-06-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-07-jpg

    So far, GM has indicated that some other '16 LF4 engines have had similar problems but it has yet to suggest what causes the problem much less why only #1 and #2 show the wear, however, in a discussion I had with the R&D Director at Driven Racing Oil, he suggested that if the bore walls are finished with torque plates, it could be that, during engine assembly when the front cover bolts are tightened, that pulls the #1 and #2 bores out of round causing uneven bore wear, but again, that's speculation and not a confirmed cause.

    Last week, the replacement engine–actually, this time it's a "long block" and two new turbochargers rather than a complete engine–arrived at Bunnin Cadillac. Technician, Luis Rios pulled the old motor and was transferring the induction system and accessories to the new long-block when I visited last Thursday.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-08-jpg
    Old motor out. Service Technician, Luis Rios, at left

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-09-jpg
    New LF4 long block, ready to be dressed and installed.

    I suspect the new engine installation will be complete early this coming week.
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 06-16-2019 at 12:09 PM.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    How did you get reliability data for those cars? I find it hard to get that kind of info, other than the JD Power studies which do not break down the data by model.
    Consumer Report Magazine, but I also read Car & Driver



    I'm not gown up yet.

    Ha!





    I don't have grandkids and my Stepson is out of college. My neighbor's kids are the closest I have to grandkids and I've been helping put two of them through Christian middle school.

    Great. My comment was somewhat out of line. Drunk posting.



    You're spot-on with you comment about oil filters. Bypass valves are not discrete devices. They do not just suddenly pop full open at a given pressure. I'm not sure how oil filter manufacturers define valve opening but I've always assumed the number given is the point at which the valve is fully open. My feeling is one should change the filter a lot sooner than you change the oil because as soon as the bypass opens just a little bit, there is some volume of oil which does not get filtered. My feeling is that any unfiltered oil can be a bad thing, so I change filters at half the drain interval or a third of it if the engine is on an extended drain interval.
    Great to hear your opinion

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    I finally have the imagery from the diagnostic session on the engine in my '16 Coupe which was done three weeks ago at Bunning Cadillac. Keep in mind that HFV6es uses a cylinder numbering system that is different from most other GM engines. The driver side bank is "Bank 2" which is cylinders 2, 4 and 6. The passenger side is "Bank 1" which is cylinders 1, 3 and 5.

    The new engine is on order.


    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-01-jpg
    The cat inlet from Bank 1.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-02-jpg
    Bank 1 turbo outlet cavity.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-03-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-04-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-05-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-06-jpg

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-07-jpg

    So far, GM has indicated that some other '16 LF4 engines have had similar problems but it has yet to suggest what causes the problem much less why only #1 and #2 show the wear, however, in a discussion I had with the R&D Director at Driven Racing Oil, he suggested that if the bore walls are finished with torque plates, it could be that, during engine assembly when the front cover bolts are tightened, that pulls the #1 and #2 bores out of round causing uneven bore wear, but again, that's speculation and not a confirmed cause.

    Last week, the replacement engine–actually, this time it's a "long block" and two new turbochargers rather than a complete engine–arrived at Bunnin Cadillac. Technician, Luis Rios pulled the old motor and was transferring the induction system and accessories to the new long-block when I visited last Thursday.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-08-jpg
    Old motor out. Service Technician, Luis Rios, at left

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-861-09-jpg
    New LF4 long block, ready to be dressed and installed.

    I suspect the new engine installation will be complete early this coming week.
    very interesting!

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevito View Post
    Consumer Report Magazine, but I also read Car & Driver

    I'm too cheap to subscribe to Consumer Reports but I do read CD.


    Great. My comment was somewhat out of line. Drunk posting.
    I stay off forums when I'm drinking.

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    I have read this entire post and am wondering if you would suggest a ATS-V to a prospective buyer or advise them to steer clear? I am a prospective buyer. I am looking for a used sedan so as to let someone else eat the depreciation.

    My background is this: I am a 50 yr old car guy who gravitates toward "sleepers". I had a 2011 Subaru WRX STI hatchback which was pro tuned and I upgraded most of the suspension components. I loved that car but it was a little rough around the edges and wasn't a lot of fun in heavy traffic. When it showed signs of potential engine trouble on the horizon, I decided to trade it in and get something more comfortable and yet still practical. I opted for a 2016 Ford Edge Sport. I immediately realized I had gone too soft and started looking for a track car or weekend car. I purchased a 2011 Corvette Grand Sport with 14k miles and upgraded the brake fluid and pads. Amazing track car! but I just didn't drive it enough. I just sold that car and am now searching for a really fun daily driver (I will trade or sell the Edge Sport) that is sufficiently comfortable.

    I am not particularly tied to any particular brand but I do want four doors and a hatch or decent trunk with folding rear seats. I will probably buy a very low mileage used car, preferably a one owner personal lease vehicle. I would like to spend in the $35-45k range.I am not looking for 0-60 times but a car with great suspension that feels like a drivers car in the twisty roads I am considering a ATS V, Genesis G70 3.3T Sport, Alfa Romeo Guilia Ti Sport, VW Golf R (which I would modify immediately to reach my performance goals) or a Chevy SS. While there are many other from the German stable which interest me, I don't want to drive the same brand as many of the more snobby/obnoxious people around me tend to drive. I am undecided. I was just about to pull the trigger on 10k mile 2016 ATS V which was loaded with every option. I went so far as to have a 3rd party mechanic inspect the car for me. After reading your experiences, I hit the brakes.

    Honest opinion? Would you suggest a 2018 or should I scratch it off my list? This will be my only vehicle. I want some degree of reliability. I don't mind replacing a touch screen panel and would probably add a downpipe and spark plugs when tuning the car. Transmission problems or turbo seal leakage and cylinder or head damage is a different story. While I am a adult capable of making his own decisions, I would greatly appreciate any advice you might have. Thank you in advance for your consideration

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    Anyone have any thoughts? Doesn't seem to be much traffic on this forum

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