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  1. #31
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    Last weekend, I was down in Bowling Green KY for a Corvette event at the National Corvette Museum.

    I ran into John Heinricy, the former GM Performance Division Chief Engineer and a 12-time SCCA Champion road racer. We were talking about the ATS-V and and itís LF4. He wonders why Cadillac didnít use a normally aspirated version of the Corvette's 6.2L LT1. He claims that any platform with an under hood big enough for a V6 twin-turbo will accept the Gen 5 V8. While I donít necessarily agree with Johnís advocacy of a V8 in the car, Iíd would be interested to know if, during the early discussions about what an ATS-V should be, did the "V8 vs V6-turboĒ debate take place and why did the V6 win-out?

    In fact, I asked Cadillac's media guy, Dave Caldwell, that question in my last email.

    What are the odds that he'll answer?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Tuna's Avatar
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    Given that the new Camaro has a version of the ATS chassis and will definitely get a V8, I would assume that the V8 would fit in the ATS as well.

    My guess is that Cadillac wants to show case the V6TT in the ATS and, just maybe, the V6TT package gives them more flexibility in the Pirelli World Challenge series.

    Dave Caldwell answer? Depends on how well he likes you!
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  3. #33
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    I would guess the real answer is that CTS-V gets V8, but the technical excuse is that the TTV6 is lighter and shorter helping the balance.

    What I'm wondering is with the ease of tuning turbo cars which will actually put more power to the pavement ... VSport guys are reporting >500 to the wheels with the trifecta tune ...

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~tc~ View Post
    I would guess the real answer is that CTS-V gets V8, but the technical excuse is that the TTV6 is lighter and shorter helping the balance.

    What I'm wondering is with the ease of tuning turbo cars which will actually put more power to the pavement ... VSport guys are reporting >500 to the wheels with the trifecta tune ...
    Wait a minute....
    They're reporting 500-hp at the wheels with just an ECM calibration? Holy crap, that's about 580 at the flywheel or an increase of 160-hp? Is that uncorrected, STP-corrected or SAE-corrected? Also, on what kind of dyno were these tests run? Finally, to gain that much with just a cal, would likely require a lot more boost so...what kind of gasoline did they run?
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 12-11-2015 at 10:12 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuna View Post
    (snip)

    Dave Caldwell answer? Depends on how well he likes you!

    I suspect that I'm not on his Christmas Card list these days.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    I ran into John Heinricy, the former GM Performance Division Chief Engineer and a 12-time SCCA Champion road racer. We were talking about the ATS-V and and itís LF4. He wonders why Cadillac didnít use a normally aspirated version of the Corvette's 6.2L LT1. He claims that any platform with an under hood big enough for a V6 twin-turbo will accept the Gen 5 V8. While I donít necessarily agree with Johnís advocacy of a V8 in the car, Iíd would be interested to know if, during the early discussions about what an ATS-V should be, did the "V8 vs V6-turboĒ debate take place and why did the V6 win-out?

    In fact, I asked Cadillac's media guy, Dave Caldwell, that question in my last email.

    What are the odds that he'll answer?
    An today there is this.....
    Cadillac ATS-V+ to Feature LS7 V-8 Power

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    Wait a minuter....
    They're reporting 500-hp at the wheels with just an ECM calibration? Holy crap, that's about 580 at the flywheel or an increase of 160-hp? Is that uncorrected, STP-corrected or SAE-corrected? Also, on what kind of dyno were these tests run? Finally, to gain that much with just a cal, would likely require a lot more boost so...what kind of gasoline did they run?
    Yes, welcome to the world of turbo cars. Boost is increased from 12 psi to 18 psi, and then additional power can be added by fine tuning the fuel and ignition mapping.

    These have all been on 93 octane to my knowledge. You can go even further with an "E85" tune due to its even higher resistance to detonation, but I'm not sure anyone has been willing to push the boost and fuel that far.

    According to Trifecta and Hennessey, it appears the high pressure fuel pump is the limiting factor, and apparently there are not any "off the shelf" solutions right now - hopefully that changes with the ATSV.

    I don't know the details on the dynos. I've seen a few different reports, it would be an incredible coincidence that they were all the same type/calibration.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~tc~ View Post
    Yes, welcome to the world of turbo cars. Boost is increased from 12 psi to 18 psi, and then additional power can be added by fine tuning the fuel and ignition mapping.
    Actually, if you didn't pick it up in my earlier post, I'm highly skeptical of that increase. Either the dyno numbers have been inflated by fooling with the correction factors or test temperatures or the data is just bogus. I get that there will be a torque increase with a 4-psi increase in boost but I'd have to "see it to believe it" to accept an increase of 40% just with cal.

    Bring me a CTS V-sport and this killer cal you're talking bout. I'll run it on my chassis dyno, put in the cal then run again. If I see 160-more hp just with the cal, I'll eat crow right on this blog. I'll even supply the 100-octane unleaded gas.

    These have all been on 93 octane to my knowledge.
    I can see that as long as the IAT and ECT are kept cool and the driver rolls into the throttle smoothly, but you can bet the engine is not going to make that kind of power for long on 93 and not get KR.

    You can go even further with an "E85" tune due to its even higher resistance to detonation, but I'm not sure anyone has been willing to push the boost and fuel that far.
    It's not the tune which has a higher resistance to detonation, it's the E85 itself which, if the fuel is truly 85% ethanol, is about 105-octane. Problem is the air-fuel for E85 is much more rich so you can't just put E85 in the tank, throw an E85 tune on the motor and expect it to magically make more power. You're going to need an injector change, too.

    According to Trifecta and Hennessey, it appears the high pressure fuel pump is the limiting factor, and apparently there are not any "off the shelf" solutions right now - hopefully that changes with the ATSV
    They're right. LPE told me that a year ago and the problem is not inadequate fuel flow at high rpm. It's inadequate fuel flow and mid-range rpm. The pumps on the lower hp engines cannot flow enough fuel in the 2000-4000 rpm range to support the increased torque output at those engine speeds which can some from increased air flow.

    I don't know the details on the dynes.
    Not knowing the dyno correction and other details is how you can flimflam people with dyno results.

    But, you know what...with my soon-to-come ATS-V, I'm actually going to be happy with 464-hp or so. Sure I might stick a better air filter on the engine and maybe add a different exhaust looking for 480 just to be able to say I could do it, but when I really want to go fast, I'll switch to another vehicle.

    As for "tunes" for an ATS-V, I'm told that 2016 Cadillacs are supposed to be the first GM vehicles to go to the over-the-air update of calibrations, that is, there won't be any more flashing the ECM at the field level. Cal updates will come from something like On-Star. Until the EFI Lives and HPTuners of the world figure out a way to breach that system such that users can get access to the ECM calibration, there is likely not going to be any "tuning" in the way we DIYs have known it since 1996.

  9. #39
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    Heard from my pal Juan Miller at Bunnin Chevrolet/Cadillac.

    The plant which makes the ATS-V is supposed to start making 2016s on 1 June, i.e.: Monday Morning.

    He said he should hear soon from Cadillac when my car will be built.

  10. #40
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    Hey...I just watched this video of Pilgrim in an ATS-V at Belle Isle. It's a street course, which I dearly hate, but it's a cool video. I love the sound of the V6. In fact, it sounds louder than I was expecting.

    I finally heard from Dave Caldwell at Cadillac on some of the questions I've been sending him.

    On the run-flat tire issue I've been talking about for a while turns out that anyone getting information from a dealer saying the car has run-flats, can rest assured. It does not use RFTs. The ATS-V uses a non-run flat version of the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. The car comes with an inflation kit so if you have a small leak, like a nail or something, you can temporarily fix it with that. If you have a more significant tire failure, better have a AAA card.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
    An today there is this.....
    Cadillac ATS-V+ to Feature LS7 V-8 Power
    Well "Grumpy" official Cadillac isn't saying whether or not the ATS-V's under hood space was designed for a V8 or not. Personally, I don't think it was. Now, a Gen V8 may fit and Heinricy indeed told me in the discussion he and I had back on the 14th that, if a twin-turbocharged V6 fits, a Gen 4 or 5 V8 will fit, too. As for the weight issue, I'm not sure what an LF4 weighs but the LS7 weighs 454-lbs.

    One situation which makes me a little skeptical about the LS7 continuing beyond the 5th Gen Camaro Z28 which goes out of production soon or may even be out of production now, is that it's a Gen IV engine and I question GM's ability to continue making a Gen when all its engine manufacturing resources have moved to Gen 5. Plus LS7 is a port-injected engine. GM has gone totally to DGI with V8s. There are no direct-injected cylinder heads for LS7. While the LS7 is a great engine, it's reputation has been somewhat soiled by a problem with valve guide wear. I'm not sure Cadillac would want to put LS7 into a new brand and risk having to deal with that baggage.

    That said, it's possible GM might justify a special small run of "ATS-V+s" because the small numbers might not affect the CAFE numbers that much. Might it be an "ATS-V+" with another 40-hp and carbon brakes? Might not sell very well, but it sure would make a hell of a performance statement. The question we need to ask: "Is that the type of performance statment Cadillac wants to make."

    But, MT's and our speculation, aside, here's what Dave Caldwell said when I asked him about whether or not a V8 was considered during the ATS-V's development.

    Yes, certainly that was a question in the development process. We were heavily committed to the Twin Turbo, hence it's very existence in the first place (it is a Cadillac-exclusive engine, designed essentially for this car.) But sure, this was something discussed.

    Our approach came down to a couple of simple factors:
    1 - The Twin Turbo is exceptional. V-Series is about track-capable (from the factory) luxury cars, at the pinnacle of performance, delivered in a unique and exhilarating fashion. This engine in the ATS-V is superb at fulfilling that mission.
    2 - So why not a V8? We have a car coming soon - CTS-V in August - that fulfills this desire splendidly! It will of course be a supercharged V8 with 640 hp, an arsenal of torque, etc.

    We are expanding V-Series (and the whole of Cadillac) to appeal to a bit broader audience. So we did not want these two V-Series product lines to be too similar, covering the same exact territory. ATS-V gives us the opportunity to broaden V-Series by creating a slightly different performance characteristic. One car is a bit smaller, more accessible (relatively speaking) and agile. The big brother is a little bit larger, more elite. We like to say that ATS-V is "the scalpel" and CTS-V is "the sledgehammer."


    Funnily enough, the measured performance of the two cars will be quite close. The Twin Turbo does not dilute the V-Series standard whatsoever - I'd even say it adds to and enhances the V-Series toolbox. The car is extremely capable, superbly quick, such that we're pleased to put it up against absolutely every car in its category.


    We at Cadillac will be among the few in the industry who will continue to develop and deploy new V8s in the future. So we, of course, adore the V8 engine, which Cadillac virtually invented as a mass-produced engine 101 years ago!
    I also asked Dave to comment specifically on the story on the Motor Trend web site's "Wide Open Throttle" page. His reply was pretty pointed.

    That story is not accurate. We are not doing a V8 in that car.
    MT knows this...
    Let me know what you guys think about Caldwell's answer.
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 05-31-2015 at 09:17 PM. Reason: added content, fixed error

  12. #42
    Senior Member Tuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    The car comes with an inflation kit so if you have a small leak, like a nail or something, you can temporarily fix it with that. If you have a more significant tire failure, better have a AAA card.
    The CTS V2 is the same - No runflats and the inflation kit. Lucky for me, the sedan and wagon have a spare tire well. I bought a spare tire kit with jack and lug wrench just in case. The Volt was the same - inflation kit, no spare. Our regular ATS is the same.

    Given the MagRide shock system, I'd rather have runflats on the car and not need that inflation kit. Oh well.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Tuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    I also asked Dave to comment specifically on the story on the Motor Trend web site's "Wide Open Throttle" page. His reply was pretty pointed.
    That story is not accurate. We are not doing a V8 in that car.
    MT knows this..
    Too bad, I was sorta hoping of putting an LS7 ATS next to my LS7 Vert - if I could afford it.
    Love the LS7 motor!!!!!
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  14. #44
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    Looking at the weather you've been getting over there near OKC, you'd better be looking at putting a submarine next to that 427 Convertible.

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