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  1. #136
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    Default welcome to the ATS-V community.

    Hib, answering your Water Injection (WI) questions.

    "You mention water injection...now, are you going to use water/alcohol injection or just water?"

    'll probably use a water/20% methanol mix. Why? Tuning for water and 20% methanol is relatively easy, since the demand usually only comes @ wide open throttle and very little fuel (methanol) is added.Water is usually 25% of your fuel injector flow and the methanol would only be 20% of the total mix. Higher % of methanol/alcohol (fuel) can cause tuning problems because you are adding more fuel and would probably need a modification to the ECU or a piggy back controller.

    "Also, what system are you considering?"

    In 2002 when I first got interested in WI there wasn't much available except Aquamist's systems. They were the WI gold standard for road racing, but very expensive $455.00 (2002) for a pump alone. The others were generic systems that required much modification. Like you, being a resident of the People's Demokratic Republik of Kalifornia, I have to keep my system's stealth. I've made a couple and will probably do so once more. One of the reasons for buying this car is so I have a car that performs well and I don't have to hide modifications. On second thought I'll have to hide the WI won't I?

    There are decades of WI experience & volumes of data that explain the subject better than me. If anyone is interested I'll go dig out my 3" binder on the subject and check to see if any of the old forums are still around.


    A bit of trivia from a reliable source. During WWII water/alcohol injection was used by the military on forced induction aircraft flying at high altitude. Also Buick's V6 Turbo Regal had a "Power Injection" light on the dash & a like location in the fuse box, unfortunately Buick's WI system never went into production.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by madjack View Post
    Hib, answering your Water Injection (WI) questions.

    "You mention water injection...now, are you going to use water/alcohol injection or just water?"

    'll probably use a water/20% methanol mix. Why? Tuning for water and 20% methanol is relatively easy, since the demand usually only comes @ wide open throttle and very little fuel (methanol) is added.Water is usually 25% of your fuel injector flow and the methanol would only be 20% of the total mix. Higher % of methanol/alcohol (fuel) can cause tuning problems because you are adding more fuel and would probably need a modification to the ECU or a piggy back controller.
    When you say "Water is usually 25% of your fuel injector flow.." are you talking about the engine's fuel injectors or are you talking about the injector(s) used by the water injection?

    "Also, what system are you considering?"

    In 2002 when I first got interested in WI there wasn't much available except Aquamist's systems. They were the WI gold standard for road racing, but very expensive $455.00 (2002) for a pump alone. The others were generic systems that required much modification.
    Have you looked at the Banks water/alcohol injection?

    Like you, being a resident of the People's Demokratic Republik of Kalifornia, I have to keep my system's stealth. I've made a couple and will probably do so once more. One of the reasons for buying this car is so I have a car that performs well and I don't have to hide modifications. On second thought I'll have to hide the WI won't I?
    What will be interesting is finding a place that is near the engine to hide a water/alcohol injection system.

    There are decades of WI experience & volumes of data that explain the subject better than me. If anyone is interested I'll go dig out my 3" binder on the subject and check to see if any of the old forums are still around.

    A bit of trivia from a reliable source. During WWII water/alcohol injection was used by the military on forced induction aircraft flying at high altitude. Also Buick's V6 Turbo Regal had a "Power Injection" light on the dash & a like location in the fuse box, unfortunately Buick's WI system never went into production.
    I'm familiar with water/alcohol injection's history and development by the military in WW2. After use in WW2, it was common on military aircraft powered by reciprocating engines until the end of their service. Water/alcohol injection was also common on large, multi-engine civilian aircraft powered by recips, ie: Douglas DC-7s, Lockheed Constallations and so forth. Not only was water injection used on supercharged reciprocating engines, but it was, also, used in the early years of jet aircraft to improve take-off performance.

    Fun fact: during WW2, not only did the military use water injection or water/alcohol injection as an antidetonat, but the military, especially the Germans, used nitrous oxide. It was first used by the Luftwaffe on Messerschmitt Bf 109s and later was used on a lot of German aircraft. The Brits also used nitrous oxide and even liquid oxygen injection. The U.S. did not use nitrous oxide other than on an experimental basis.
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 11-29-2015 at 04:37 PM.

  3. #138
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    The Fairest Sandra the Red and I took the V-net's ATS-V test car to Henderson, Nevada and back last week. Went up there to take in one day of NASCAR's Champion's Week festivities in nearby Las Vegas and to visit my Mom.

    Champion's Week is a big freakin' party for NASCAR drivers, teams and fans which takes place two weeks after the season-ending race at Homestead-Miami Speedway. Because of limited time off from work, we could only make one day, so we picked Thursday. The main events that day are: the "Victory Lap", when the cars of the 16 drivers who were in the Chase for the Sprint Cup "cruise" up and down the Las Vegas Strip and do burnouts at the two locations where they turn around. If you're into the whole burnout thing, it's a total blast to watch.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-18burnout-jpg
    Sprint Cup Champion, Kyle Busch, at the wheel of the #18 M&Ms/Joe Gibbs Racing Toyota Camry, does his final burnout of the 2015 NASCAR Sprint Cup season on the Vegas Strip at the corner of Las Vegas Bl. and E. Harmon Av. Check out the Vegas Metro cop at far right. Probably the only time in his career he stood by watching while someone did a burnout in front of Planet Hollywood. Image: Sandy Rubel.

    We also had tickets to the "After the Lap" show in the Pearl Theater at the Palms Resort just off the strip. This is an unscripted, mostly comedic but sometimes serious, Q-and-A session with the 16 Chase drivers. Asking the questions were cable TV personalities, Rutlege Wood and Courtney Hansen, along with Miss Sprint Cup, Madison Martin. We've been to After the Lap a couple of times and it's always a fun gig. Kyle Busch's amazing achievement in winning the 2015 Sprint Cup Championship along with the retirement of Jeff Gordon, made this After the Lap Show one to remember.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-gordonharvick-jpg
    Four-time Sprint Cup Champion, Jeff Gordon (left), driver of the #24 Axalta/Hendrick Motorsports Chevy SS, talks about his retirement from NASCAR Sprint Cup Racing during the "After the Lap" Show. At right is 2014 Sprint Cup Champion, Kevin Harvick, driver of the #4 Budwiser/Stewart-Hass Racing Chevy SS. Image: Sandy Rubel.

    As for our ATS-V, it was another, six-hour Henderson run in the "Bimmer Buster". This is the second time I've made that trip on a beautiful Winter day in the California high-desert. Most of the time, I cruised along between 75 and 85-mph. Fuel economy was in the high- to low-20s.

    The little V, is a great road-trip car. The Recaro seats, with their wide range of adjustability, are quite comfortable, once you get all the adjustments the way you want them and get the tilt column set the way you like. For highway cruising, the best mode for the chassis controls is "Tour" even though it reduces the steering effort a little too much. ATS-Vs have some fairly high spring rates, but MagneRide comes to the rescue by damping low frequency ride movements such that the car rides quite nice on the highway. The high-frequency stuff, mainly a function of suspension bushings and tires, is still a bit harsh, but nothing the type of driver who should be buying an ATS-V will find uncomfortable. In fact, I think one reason Cadillac's V-series development team chose a non-run-falt tire was an RFT's inherent aggravation of high-frequency harshness. The combination of MR and non-RFTs is perfect for the ATS-V. My compliments to those who developed the car's ride.

    Now that we've driven the car for nearly 4600 miles we've developed a few pet peeves:
    1) The heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) controls in the center stack has some weird touch pad designations. "Auto" puts the HVAC into the automatic mode. Ok, I get that. "Off" however, is really not an "off switch". It toggles the system between "Auto" and "off" which made me feel like an idiot until I figured it out. The "off" pad should either be labeled "on-off" or with the on-off symbol, or the system software should be such that when you touch "off" the system goes off rather than toggling between on and off.

    2) I have to admit, after several months of using the "Cadillac User Experience" or "CUE" so far, my "bonding" with CUE is a love-hate relationship. To my surprise, I actually like the navigation system. It works well. I really appreciate CUE's "weather" feature. The WiFi hotspot which comes with OnStar is wonderful. I like how CUE graphically portrays how the driver or passenger adjusts the air chambers in their Recaros. As I said above, I'm not enamored with HVAC controls and that extends to CUE's role in displaying them.

    3) Some of those center stack touch bars, like "volume" are too sensitive. You can move your finger near the volume bar and volume changes. You don't even have to touch it. Also, in my experience, this is not a consistent problem. Sometimes I can simply change volume with my finger near the bar. Other times I must touch it. Perhaps its fluctuations in my aura driven by the phases of the moon and tides which cause that. Just sayin'...

    4) The car still has a low-frequency, buzzing vibration coming from the rear of the car, however, on this second Henderson trip, I spent more time analyzing it. I hear/feel it most when the speed is 80-90-mph. Without some special equipment, I can't tell for sure, but my wildassed guess is this car has a prop shaft that just a tiny bit out of balance or maybe I've got a tire just a teeny-tiny bit out of balance.

    The Bimmer Buster has freakin' killer brakes. Only brakes I've driven to date which are better are the carbon brakes on my '12 Z06. Whatever GM uses for brake pad material certainly emits a lot of dust and the gold chains types, who may buy the car for its image and performance potential but never actually use that potential, are not going to like how dirty the wheels get, however, I don't care. I just turn the hose on the wheels once a week. I want brakes which kick the asses of BMW Ms and Benz AMGs, so I'll take the dust, thank-you-very-much. Actually, I wish I could find the same pad material on a backing plate which would fit my 2001 Camaro, but...I digress.

    I haven't had much chance to try out the car's at-limit ride-and-handing, but I can tell you that the electronic limited slip differential (eLSD) is freakin' awesome in the contribution it makes to ensuring optimal traction during high acceleration. It's a significant improvement over the limited slips we are used to driving in that it has a number of levels of slip between the two rear wheels ranging from "all slip," or an "open diff," to a "no slip", or a "locked diff". Having the large number of slip levels linked to the car's stability control system makes for some unique enhancements to the car's handling under maximum acceleration or maximum deceleration.

    I like the dual-mode exhaust, but I wish I could hear the car more. I wish both modes were a little more authoritative. Also, I wish I could hear some intake noises, like the howl of a V6 induction in the mid-range and the occasional "wheeze" turbos make when you abruptly lift off a wide-open throttle. That brings me to the sound system's ability to enhance engine sounds. There's been some confusion about this feature, so, a while back, I emailed Cadillac's media relations Manager, Dave Caldwell about it and here is what Calwell said.
    This (ability) has been somewhat exaggerated. All that system does is 'turn-down' certain noises. It attenuates some tones that are less pleasing so that other sounds are more consistently heard. It's quite subtle. There are no sounds which are not authentic. Nothing can be heard other than the naturally occurring sounds of the engine. It works if the audio system is off because it should be enabled when one is driving. Think of this like the conductor of an orchestra. He/she only has the musicians in front of him. He can balance the various instruments and players, but that's about it. Same for this feature. The real-world effect is subtle. When one is in 'Sport' or 'Track' mode, the affect is dialed-back even more and you hear closer to 100% (of the actual engine noise) for a more aggressive sound character. That's all that's happening.
    I totally like the car's interior roominess. Ok, it's not a full-sized car, but for a compact, luxury sports sedan, it hauls around four adults in reasonable comfort. I also like the headroom but, then, I'm only 5'7". I'd like to hear what people 6' to 6'3" have to say.

    I hate the car's front seat belts, but I've already bitched about that once in post #89. I also hate the car's temperature gauge, if you can call it that, but I've bitched about that, too, in post #82.

    I constantly lust for the ATS-V's look. I like the car's rake. I like that the wheel opening fit tight around the tires. The front end is bad-assed. I like the front splitter and the rear fascia. Actually, I wish I had the more aggressive aero kit that comes with the track package, but the high cost scared me off. I, also, like how Cadillac goes the understated route on the badging on this car. Just a couple of small V-series emblems on the doors and one on the decklid. The BMW M3 drivers need to get close to read the "V" but they can't, so, when they get smoked;l they must be totally bewildered that their ass just got beat like a rented mule by a freakin' Cadillac.

    Wednesday, is my rescheduled Xpel Ultimate PPF installation. Also, the oil life monitor is showing about 50%, so it's time to make an oil filter change. So far, the engine has not used any oil due to a combination of GM Powertrain's good build quality of the LF4 and my use of Gibbs Driven LS30, 5W30 engine oil.
    Ok. That's it for now. Time for a cold beer.



    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 07-27-2016 at 12:43 PM. Reason: added content to captions

  4. #139
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    Was down at Transhine Auto Detailing in Whittier yesterday afternoon and evening. I had them install Xpel Ultimate paint protection film on the front end, the first third of the hood, on the rocker panels and the lower few inches of the door. Took about six hours for Transhine's Bill DeBever to apply the entire Xpel Ultimate kit for ATS-Vs and after watching the work, once again I suggest that PPF kits like this are not really a DIY product unless said DIY already has experience applying PPF.

    Also, this is my first experience with Xpel's product and I'm impressed with the smoothness of the top, "clear coat" layer of Xpel Ultimate PPF. The stuff really looks good on the car!

    In the next week or so, I'm going to post a more in-depth article on Xpel Ultimate in the V-Net's product evaluation pages.

    A Little-V Blog: The ATS-V purchase and ownership experience-818-09-jpg
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 12-18-2015 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #140
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    Had the car into Bunnin Cadillac this week so they can address my vibration problem. The Service Consultant took a ride with me and it didn't take long for him to agree with me. Between 75 and 85 mph, there is a vibration you can hear--a buzzing humm--and feel coming from the back of the car.

    First step was to check the balance of the two rear tires. No problems found.

    They gave us the car back for the rest of the week because of Christmas. Next week, they are going to inspect the rear drive axle and the prop shaft.

    My guess is they are going to have to "instrument" the car to detect the source of the noise.

    I'm still betting an out-of-balance driveshaft.

    Merry Christmas everyone!
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 09-30-2016 at 01:51 PM. Reason: spelling

  6. #141
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    ... And also have to go back in time about 50 years to when they used generators.

    Modern cars use alternators, they work quite differently, specifically, the output is a lot more constant voltage with an alternator, which is critical with all the electronics in there.

    Alternator and Generator Theory

  7. #142
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    An "alternator" is, indeed, a generator. It has three-phase generator with a "rectifier bridge" built in which produces a DC output.

    GM terminology is "generator". Read factory service information, you'll see.
    Hib Halverson
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    Guess you didn't read the link above?

    The two work in totally different manners, and one generates DC (and doesn't need rectification), the other AC (and requires rectifiers)

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~tc~ View Post
    Guess you didn't read the link above?
    I did not.

    The two work in totally different manners, and one generates DC (and doesn't need rectification), the other AC (and requires rectifiers)
    I'm just going to accept what GM states in the ATS-V Service Data: they're called "generators".
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 07-02-2016 at 11:08 PM.
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    Next week, we're going to have the BMW Buster into Bunnin Cadillac, again, so they can finish up (I hope) diagnosing my vibration problem.

    Also, I found out that last Thursday, Cadillac issued an update to the CUE. It's v2.5 and included Apple Car Play. Supposedly, this update requires parts of the car entertainment system be replaced, so Bunnin will be doing that, too.
    Hib Halverson
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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hib Halverson View Post
    Also, I found out that last Thursday, Cadillac issued an update to the CUE. It's v2.5 and included Apple Car Play. Supposedly, this update requires parts of the car entertainment system be replaced, so Bunnin will be doing that, too.
    Is this update applicable to 2014 ATS's as well our just the newer ones?
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  12. #147
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    The bulletin I saw applied only to ATS-Vs built before a specific VIN. The regular ATS was not mentioned, however, there was an instruction in the bulletin about how to identify which version of CUE is installed. What you do is: check for the "Projection" icon on the CUE Home Screen. If that is displayed, then you have 2.5. If it's not, you don't.



  13. #148
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    Well....haven't done much with the BMW Buster of late. My Wife, the Fairest Sandra the Red, drives it to work every day along with driving it to her two-days-a-month weekend sidejob. We have near 7000 miles on the car at this point. While we are having a few rough spots in the ownership experience, we've had no major problems. Heck, I wish I could buy a second one–maybe a blue coupe with a six-speed, the HUD, the Recaros and the Carbon package. Damn, I wish the stock market wasn't in the toilet

    At 7500 miles the Cadillac free maintenance is supposed to rotate the tires. Actually, that seems like not much mileage for a tire rotation. I wonder what the ATS-V development team knows about tire wear that prompted them to require tire rotations at 7500 miles.

    I tell you one thing, the engine in the BMW Buster must be pretty "tight". Since the first oil change at 1096 miles, it's only used 1/2-qt of oil. I'm impressed with the LF4 engine in that respect.

    We got a nice letter from Cadillac today outlining the CUE upgrade which explained to dealers in a service bulletin several weeks ago. Only problem is, Cadillac seems to be having trouble providing enough parts for dealers to perform the update. The parts for our car's upgrade to CUE 2.5 are still not in.

    The noise/vibration issue I've been talking about for the last month or so is still not solved. I took the Asst. Service Mgr. at Bunnin Chevrolet Cadillac for a ride several weeks ago and with him in the back seat and me driving at 85-mph, he said he could hear and feel the vibration. When the tech. who works on stuff like that drove it, he came back saying he really couldn't get a feel for it, but, admittedly, he wasn't anxious to drive the car that fast in traffic. The dealership told me they called GM about it and their only comment was "He (meaning me) shouldn't be driving that fast on the street, anyway."

    Wait....what?
    You mean no one at GM has ever driven I-15 from Barstow to Las Vegas? Hell, sometimes the flow of traffic is 85-mph along there.

    After we get the CUE upgrade done, I'm going to start hitting the dealership a little harder on this because I don't think a car costing upwards of 70 large should have a buzzing/hum from the rear seat area when driving at 75-85 mph.

    I still want to change the spark plugs to something a step colder. I have some Densos for it but so far, I haven't found the time to devote to the time consuming task which is changing plugs on an LF4.

    I'd also like to change the transmission over to Joe Gibbs Driven Dexron 6 ATF. That actually looks like a pretty easy job as the service manual says the trans pan gasket can be reused. What Lake Speed Jr, who runs Joe Gibbs' oil operation, told me in an email:
    The DEXRON HP is just a lighter version of the DEXRON VI. We have access to the factory fill additive package, so we just upgrade the base oil…
    While Dexron HP might be worth a percentage point in fuel mileage, I'd rather use the slightly higher viscosity of Dexron 6.
    Last edited by Hib Halverson; 02-17-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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    Got a scare yesterday morning. I was out in the driveway talking to my Wife, the Fairest Sandra the Red, just as she was leaving to put half-a-day in at her sidejob of doing title work at a Harley dealer, when she started the car and puffs of oil smoke came out of the exhaust. I thought WTF?

    This morning the same thing happened only not as much smoke. Don't know what to think about this other than maybe it's exhaust valve seals are leaking or, more likely, a compressor shaft seal in one of the turbos is leaking. I'm going to watch the situation for a while.

    I'm still waiting or Cadillac to make parts available to my dealer so I can get the CUE upgraded from 2.0 to 2.5. Still got my vibration at 80-mph, too.

    In other news, on Sunday, I finally got around to installing an Xpel Headlight Protection kit on the BMW Buster's headlights. I'm going to post a detailed product review/hot-to elsewhere in the V-net in the next few days but the executive summary is: Xpel Headlight Protection kits are great products. Unlike full-on paint protection film, applying Headlight Protection Film (HPF) is, generally, a DIY task. I'd give it a three on a scale of five for difficulty. The best news is the stuff is virtually invisible and protects one of an ATS-V $1300 headlight assemblies from yellowing or hazing over. At a mere 70 bucks, it's money well-spent.

  15. #150
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    Turns out the exhaust smoke I'm seeing on start up is normal. I found a GM service bulletin about just that issue on GDI engines, including the LF4.

    The engine runs quite rich right after a cold start to help accelerate cat light off.

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